Sunday School

[Lemur]

Okay, I've got a smallish dilemma, and I thought I'd solicit the wisdom of the Orgahs.

In a nutshell: My mom is a Christian Scientist, and wants my kids to go to a CS Sunday School, such as I attended when I was a kid. Benefits:

• Focus on scripture with a minimum of proselytizing
• No priests, deacons, ministers or official clergy of any sort; entirely lay-ministered
• Very nice people

Drawbacks:

• Non-Nicene theology
• I have to sit through the main service, which is both boring and (to my mind) misguided
• My family has historically been Episcopalian
• Long drive

Now, she's been the best grandma anyone could ask for, devoting a great deal of time and effort to the kids. I don't want to irritate her in any way, 'cause she has been the single-most supportive member of our extended family. However, I cannot kindle to CS theologically, and I don't particularly want my kids going that route. I'd rather take my kids (and myself) to the local Episcopal church on Sundays. But I don't want to offend the best relative I have.

Ideas?

[Strike For The South]

You really have to do what you think is best for your children.

I have no doubt your mother is a great person and I'm sure she has done allot for you but I think you need to say "Mum, I love you but these are my children and I have to make the decison that is best for them" Tell her that you throughly enjoyed CS growing up but you don't think it's right for your children

Then hug her.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Of course if you were really serious about it you could just become a baptist and help us fight the methodists and the catholics, shifty lot those two.

[Subotan]

What SFTS said. If she really loves your kids, she'll love them regardless of the religion they are. It worked out fine for me, an atheist with a Catholic Gran and a Presbyterian Granny

[Beskar]

Being honest, if she really wants them to go to CS Sunday school, she could take them there herself (Which would save you any effort). I could imagine a very similar situation with my mother when I have kids.

However, otherwise you could just say that you don't it is the best idea.

[Major Robert Dump]

Is it her church? If it is, drop the kids at her house on Saturday and let her take them, then you can pick them up on Sunday when you are recovering from your hot, kids-free date with your wife on Saturday night. Grandma gets to see kids....kids get to be spoiled by grandma....wife and Lemur can play Total War or LFD2 and relax in a quiet house.....I think that's worth some gas. And if you are really worried about the drive time and the gas, then don't actually go home, you and the wife go get a hotel somewhere and trash the room.

[Crazed Rabbit]

SFTS' idea is elegant, compassionate, and well thought out. So I don't know who's hijacked his account.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Of course if you were really serious about it you could just become a baptist and help us fight the methodists and the catholics, shifty lot those two.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You know the Episcopal Church is described as 'Catholic-lite' right?

Seriously though, Strike's answer sounds good to me.

CR

[Kadagar_AV]

To brainwash or not to brainwash...

Me and my girlfriend has decided not to force anything upon our kids.

When they ask either her or me a question regarding faith or spiritual matters, we will answer it honestly, from our perspective.

I am agnostic, she is catholic.

So basicly, I found it best to let these questions come to them, not force anything upon them. For all I know they might be jews (!?).

Why this constant need to label and brainwash kids? Let them make up their own minds... If you are sure your faith is the correct one, then you should be equally sure your kids will coem to the same conclusion regardless of your tinkering...

[Lemur]

Why this constant need to label and brainwash kids? Let them make up their own minds... If you are sure your faith is the correct one, then you should be equally sure your kids will coem to the same conclusion regardless of your tinkering...

You seem to have a very absolutist view of religion and faith. As in, "You're either a fanatic who believes himself saved and superior, or you're a thinking being." Most religious people whom I know don't see things that way, and neither do most of the agnostics and atheists I know.

Frankly, the way you expressed your views in that post is most reminiscent of the way fundamentalists talk, very "You're either with us or against us!"

As for "brainwashing" kids, well, once agin you're taking the fundamentalist view on that one. Brainwashing has some very specific characteristics, so unless I'm talking about taking my kids to the local cult, you're way off the mark.

[Husar]

Let your kids answer a "Which religion suits you best?"-quiz on Facebook and then decide.

Or do what SFTS said, or maybe just ask your kids whether they want to go there or not, they may not make the most informed decision but it couldn't hurt to ask them I think.

[Hosakawa Tito]

They are your children, your responsibilty to raise & nuture the way you believe is best. I presume the wife is in agreement with you. So be honest with Mom and tell what your feelings & plans are. If the grandchildren happen to be visiting and grandma wishes to take them to her church services that day, no problem.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm afraid my answer would be to keep children well clear of religion until 18.

Since that does not seem an option here, I shan't dwell on the why.




I've been to a Sunday School once. Southern Baptist. A fun afternoon, really. So I say send them there and turn 'em into little Strikey's.

I also took Bible lessons after school when I was young. Nothing proselytising, just two women telling the biblical stories. I took it out of precocious cultural interest. Never regretted it. It proves one can touch the Bible and still grow up atheist, and it ensured that to this day I know everything about the Bible, such as how God demanded of Adam to sacrifice his only son Mozes for Him but then the sacrificial table broke and so they had to get a sheep which wasn't there so Jesus turned some fish into lambs for them.

[Kadagar_AV]

You seem to have a very absolutist view of religion and faith. As in, "You're either a fanatic who believes himself saved and superior, or you're a thinking being." Most religious people whom I know don't see things that way, and neither do most of the agnostics and atheists I know.

Frankly, the way you expressed your views in that post is most reminiscent of the way fundamentalists talk, very "You're either with us or against us!"

As for "brainwashing" kids, well, once agin you're taking the fundamentalist view on that one. Brainwashing has some very specific characteristics, so unless I'm talking about taking my kids to the local cult, you're way off the mark.

Absolutist, yes and no.

Is there a heaven?

Does sin exist?

Like it or not, religion boils down to some very absolute answers. Also, this may be different where you are, but where I come from sunday school is kind of all about pushing faith into undeveloped minds (call it whatever you want, I call it brainwashing).

About the "you are either with us or against us", I must say I struggle to figure out what make you come to that conclusion after reading what I wrote.

I mean, given that the child would always (almost) get 2 set of answers, and still note that both parents are happily living together, I would think that the last that could happen is "with or against us". Please elaborate how you were thinking...



Of course you should do what you think is best for your kid.

I just choose the path to let the child decide what questions to ask, who to ask, and what answers to accept.

Oh, and I have no doubt that you wont be some religious nutcase-parent, however, you have to admit that sunday school is kind of, well... Narrow-minded, when it comes to accept a non-religious world view.

But then, I am one of those strange loonies who thinks that pushing a religious idea into a very undeveloped mind is = brainwashing...

If the child finds god, let it be on his/her own.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Okay, I've got a smallish dilemma, and I thought I'd solicit the wisdom of the Orgahs.

I'm not yet a parent, but, if you will allow, I'll try to break your reasoning down from a theological persepctive.

In a nutshell: My mom is a Christian Scientist, and wants my kids to go to a CS Sunday School, such as I attended when I was a kid. Benefits:

• Focus on scripture with a minimum of proselytizing
• No priests, deacons, ministers or official clergy of any sort; entirely lay-ministered
• Very nice people

• This is usually a good thing, but interpretation is key. As your mother is one I presume you have some idea about the type of exegesis practiced. One disadvantage for this particular denomination might be a lack of historical context (essential for not getting dragged into fundamentalism later on).
• This should not really be a positive. I am myself somewhat leery of the clergy because of my own upbringing, but ordained (mostly CofE) ministers I have met have been overwhelmingly sympathetic and pious, as well as sensetive. Think about it like this, a priest is a highly trained graduate proffesional As the old saying goes, you wouldn't trust your physical welfare to a layman, would you?
• I would scout the place out first, to find out what sort of people they are.

Drawbacks:

• Non-Nicene theology
• I have to sit through the main service, which is both boring and (to my mind) misguided
• My family has historically been Episcopalian
• Long drive

• If this bothers you, then you have your answer "no".
• Ditto my last point, I'm afraid.
• Well, not really relevant. This should be a matter of conciense, not tradition.
• Not a huge consideration, but fuel is expensive.

Now, she's been the best grandma anyone could ask for, devoting a great deal of time and effort to the kids. I don't want to irritate her in any way, 'cause she has been the single-most supportive member of our extended family. However, I cannot kindle to CS theologically, and I don't particularly want my kids going that route. I'd rather take my kids (and myself) to the local Episcopal church on Sundays. But I don't want to offend the best relative I have.

Ideas?

I think you need to consider what kind of Christians, and people, you want your children to grow up to be; and decide based on that. For all that I do not agree with Kadagar, there is a point beneath his prejudice. Namely this; your children are impressionable and the experiences they have now will be more powerful than comparable ones later in life are likely to be. This can cut both ways, a bad experience in Chruch/Sunday School could put them off mainline Church and they could go off into fundamentalism or atheism.

[Lemur]

About the "you are either with us or against us", I must say I struggle to figure out what make you come to that conclusion after reading what I wrote.

If I'm misunderstanding you, I'm very sorry, but you have repeatedly expressed the view that having any religion at all means either believing every tenet or being a "cafeteria" believer, picking and choosing. And yet the vast majority of religious people I know (myself included) have their own distinct worldview, and approach religion for a variety of reasons, needs and purposes. Your expressed opinions about the religious sell them all short, and force them into caricature. To quote one of my favorite authors, Gene Wolfe, "I am a Catholic, a mass-attending, sacrament-taking, confessing Catholic; and now you know a great deal less about my beliefs than you think you do."

Oh, and I have no doubt that you wont be some religious nutcase-parent, however, you have to admit that sunday school is kind of, well... Narrow-minded, when it comes to accept a non-religious world view.

Hmm. Depends on the Sunday School, frankly. I attended a CS Sunday School for most of my childhood, and then promptly dropped the religion like a hot rock. I do appreciate getting a solid grounding in the Bible, however, as it's the single-most referenced and important work of literature in the English language (King James, obviously). If you know your Shakespeare and you know your KIng James Bible, there aren't many allusions or references that will pass you by.

If the child finds god, let it be on his/her own.

Well, this is where I'm a weirdo, 'cause for me Sunday School is not primarily about finding God.

I would scout the place out first, to find out what sort of people they are.

Already done. I assure you, they're lovely people. Small congregation, other kids for my kids to play with, etc.

[Family tradition is] not really relevant. This should be a matter of conciense, not tradition.

Actually, this is a huge consideration for me. I want my kids to be aware of our family's traditions, and Episcopalianism is a biggie. In fact, if I had to tick off three characteristics that run through my family for the past century plus, it would be: (1) Professional work in the arts (grandpa was a pro writer, grandma is a pro stained glass maker, uncle is a sculptor, etc.), (2) military/police/intel service, and (3) the Episcopal Church. I do not expect them to "find God" in a Sunday school. That's a much more personal journey. I do expect them to learn the Christian traditions, stories, text and thought that our family has been a part of for centuries.

I think you need to consider what kind of Christians, and people, you want your children to grow up to be; and decide based on that.

I don't necessarily expect them to be Christians at all. That's their journey, and they'll find it for themselves. I do expect them to have a solid grounding in the Christian tradition, whether they choose to follow it or not.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Already done. I assure you, they're lovely people. Small congregation, other kids for my kids to play with, etc.

Ok, well that always makes a big difference.

Actually, this is a huge consideration for me. I want my kids to be aware of our family's traditions, and Episcopalianism is a biggie. In fact, if I had to tick off three characteristics that run through my family for the past century plus, it would be: (1) Professional work in the arts (grandpa was a pro writer, grandma is a pro stained glass maker, uncle is a sculptor, etc.), (2) military/police/intel service, and (3) the Episcopal Church. I do not expect them to "find God" in a Sunday school. That's a much more personal journey. I do expect them to learn the Christian traditions, stories, text and thought that our family has been a part of for centuries.

I understand it's important for you, really I do. You're talking to a man whose ancestors plastered their name all over an entire Rural Deanary in what was then Southhamptonshire. Here's the thing though, your mother clearly decided that she wanted you to follow her particular faith, and acted accordingly. What I'm really suggesting is that you should follow her principle, not her particular path.

If you want your children to be Episcopalian, for example, give them that grounding. Believe me, having a "mixed" religious upbringing just confuses you; better for them to have one clear idea from you to accept or reject.

I don't necessarily expect them to be Christians at all. That's their journey, and they'll find it for themselves. I do expect them to have a solid grounding in the Christian tradition, whether they choose to follow it or not.

Well, careful there. My mother sent me to a Methodist Sunday School, and look what happened. Just don't encourage anything you don't think is good for them; I don't think you believe "Christain Science" is good for them.

I'm honestly not trying to tell you what to do, but I think the best starting point would be to try and work out what you want them to get out of Sunday School; then choose. Of course, there's always the question of whether you want them in Sunday School at all.

[Centurion1]

the catholics, shifty lot those two.

im hurt......

Hey ive been raised a pretty strong catholic i lector during mass

so of course i think you should stick with episcapalianism whcih is a lovely religion 9that is about the same as mine...) with a few bonuses like women priests which can be anice change of pace. Then again i also read king james which is not accepted by the catholic church but is just so obviously better.

On your problem though.

the fact that you even have to consider it tells me you should keep your kids with episcopalians. these proposals in which you give your kids to your mom on weekends isnt fair. i mean come on you may enjoy the occasional couple days off but you still wanna see your kids on the weekend when you probably see them most.

[Beirut]

Ideas?

As a man with two children, my view is that you are responsible for raising your children according to their best interests. Period.

What any other person wants is irrelevant and matters not a tinker's cuss.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Maybe this is just me, but I wouldn't ask for parenting advice on my kids on a video game forum.

[Kadagar_AV]

Maybe this is just me, but I wouldn't ask for parenting advice on my kids on a video game forum.

I would think this forum has evolved slightly past its name...

Backroom non the least.

I have myself cried out for help here, and got some great advice.

[Lemur]

Indeed, as someone pointed out in a different thread, the Org is more like my neighborhood pub than anything else. I feel at ease airing questions, theories and drunken foolishness in this crowd.

[Centurion1]

the key thing to remember is that it is a pub and not a debate hall.

but id rather be in a pub any day

[miotas]

Have you taught the kids anything about god yet? If not then I'd hold off for a while, if you'll indulge me I'll explain quickly my religious education.

My parents never mentioned god growing up (for which I am grateful to them) so the first time I heard about god was when I was 7 in scripture class at school (we have a system here where any kid can learn about any religion they chose for one hour a week(no religion is a valid option)) and the reason I loved learning about the bible was that I loved fantasy novels(I was an avid reader of Enid Blyton). Although soon it became apparent that these things were actually real, and I was fascinated. Huge floods, giants, talking animals, and probably the one I loved most, the super strong man who lost his powers when his hair was cut off by the baddies.

For a few years I believed this without question (after all the adults said it was true), until I eventually came to the slow realisation that none of those stories could possibly be true, I think this was about the age of 10 or 11 when I was starting to realise that Santa and the Easter bunny weren't real. I've been an agnostic ever since*. Ironically it was not long after this that I moved to a Anglican school because it was just down the road from our house and it had better facilities for my younger, wheelchair bound sister.

In a nutshell, your kids will thank you if you leave any religious education until they are at least of school age. Oh, and make sure you make it clear that they are just stories and they aren't actually real. I thought my scripture teacher was an idiot when I first figured it out.

*

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Actually, I thought I was atheist until late in high school when I realised I was actually agnostic

[Kadagar_AV]

Have you taught the kids anything about god yet? If not then I'd hold off for a while, if you'll indulge me I'll explain quickly my religious education.

My parents never mentioned god growing up (for which I am grateful to them) so the first time I heard about god was when I was 7 in scripture class at school (we have a system here where any kid can learn about any religion they chose for one hour a week(no religion is a valid option)) and the reason I loved learning about the bible was that I loved fantasy novels(I was an avid reader of Enid Blyton). Although soon it became apparent that these things were actually real, and I was fascinated. Huge floods, giants, talking animals, and probably the one I loved most, the super strong man who lost his powers when his hair was cut off by the baddies.

For a few years I believed this without question (after all the adults said it was true), until I eventually came to the slow realisation that none of those stories could possibly be true, I think this was about the age of 10 or 11 when I was starting to realise that Santa and the Easter bunny weren't real. I've been an agnostic ever since*. Ironically it was not long after this that I moved to a Anglican school because it was just down the road from our house and it had better facilities for my younger, wheelchair bound sister.

In a nutshell, your kids will thank you if you leave any religious education until they are at least of school age. Oh, and make sure you make it clear that they are just stories and they aren't actually real. I thought my scripture teacher was an idiot when I first figured it out.

*

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Actually, I thought I was atheist until late in high school when I realised I was actually agnostic

QFT

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

In a nutshell, your kids will thank you if you leave any religious education until they are at least of school age. Oh, and make sure you make it clear that they are just stories and they aren't actually real. I thought my scripture teacher was an idiot when I first figured it out.

That is also a point of view. If you tell them that the Bible is a work of fiction, you are also indoctrinating them in one manner. Much better to let them decide for themselves once they are old enough to understand the theology, as I did.

[Xiahou]

Why this constant need to label and brainwash kids? Let them make up their own minds... If you are sure your faith is the correct one, then you should be equally sure your kids will coem to the same conclusion regardless of your tinkering...

Similarly, don't brainwash them with language. If English is the right one they'll come to it on there own. Don't bother teaching them your narrow view of hygiene or manners either- it's best to let them discover these things for themselves.

It's any parent's duty to try to teach their child to be the best person that they can be. If Lemur believes that religion has been a beneficial influence on his life, he'd be remiss not to grant the same benefit to his children. That's not brainwashing.

[Lemur]

In a nutshell, your kids will thank you if you leave any religious education until they are at least of school age. Oh, and make sure you make it clear that they are just stories and they aren't actually real. I thought my scripture teacher was an idiot when I first figured it out.

Hmm, I think maybe the problem here is that you were being told that the Bible stories were literally real, as opposed to containing symbolic truths. True conversation from today:

"Daddy, Santa Claus isn't real." (Turns out someone at school was talkin' trash about Saint Nick.)
"That's not true. Santa Claus is a symbol."
"What's a symbol?"
"It's like an idea. Can you see love? Can you touch it?"
"No."
"But love is real, isn't it?"
"Yeah."
"So we use ideas and symbols to understand things like love."
"So Santa Claus is real?"
"No, he's a symbol."
[Long pause.]
"So who puts the presents under the tree?"

You get the idea. Kids are capable of distinguishing between the real and imaginary at a very early age. It's not too much of a leap to ask them to understand symbols and ideas. Heck, at this rate I'll be discussing Plato's Cave with my six-year-old pretty soon.

The real stumper, though, the one that nearly floored me, was when he innocently asked, "Is Christmas Jesus' birthday?"

You can imagine what ran through my mind. "No, it's the festival of Sol Invictus, co-opted by the early church in an attempt to mainstream Christianity in the Roman Empire." Um, no. How about, "See, there was a festival called Saturnalia ..." Nope. That won't fly. Let's try, "Jesus was probably born in the spring, but we celebrate on December 25th because we think it's funny." Definitely not. Jesu Criste, what am I going to tell this kid?

I finally settled on the weak response of, "That's the tradition."

Which of course prompted, "What's a tradition?" Ugh.

[Beskar]

Which of course prompted, "What's a tradition?" Ugh.

Things people keep on doing because their parents made them do it and inturn, they force their children to do it too.

What surprises me though, you allow your 6 year old to play Left4Dead?

[Xiahou]

You could've just said "Christmas is when we celebrate Jesus' birthday".

[a completely inoffensive name]

What surprises me though, you allow your 6 year old to play Left4Dead?

You need to start training young so you know what to do instinctively when the zombie apocalypse finally happens.

[Crazed Rabbit]

What surprises me though, you allow your 6 year old to play Left4Dead?

The question is, is that enough?

CR