Netherworld II [Concluded]

[johnhughthom]

Vote: Beskar

[ULC]

Vote: Beskar

Atheotes is obviously guilty - why are you voting for Beskar? This is very untowny like.

[Diamondeye]

[Scienter]

Atheotes is obviously guilty - why are you voting for Beskar? This is very untowny like.

What's your reasoning behind this?

[Thermal]

vote: choatix

[TinCow]

vote: choatix

Hey, that's my job!

------------------

Greetings, today's bandwagon will be on Chaotix.

1) Chaotix 'revealed' to me on Day 2 with a role that doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a game-balance and complexity level:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hello, TinCow.

The way the votes are going this round, it is pretty likely you are going to be lynched, unless you feel you can wriggle your way out of it.

If you think you are going to die, then I suggest you reveal your true role to me before it becomes illegal to do so. If you really have a pro-town role, then it will probably benefit the town better for you to be alive than dead. I can make sure that you are brought back to life to help us again... but first I will need some convincing that you really are what you claim to be.

If you think you can survive without my help, then you don't have to tell me anything. But bringing you back to life if you die will have a cost to it, as well... and if I do not know that the gain will be greater than that, I will not attempt it.

-Chaotix

He gave more information on this role in later PMs to me. He claimed that his role had the power to raise the dead, but that in order to do so he had to take the life of another person who voluntarily consented to that deal. Since he has to sacrifice someone to bring another person back to life, it is totally useless to use his abilities on anyone other than a pro-town role.

This role doesn't seem to fit 'khaan's games IMO. 'khaan's role PMs are minimalist in nature and he learned in Netherworld I with the Lucifer role that excessive complexity caused problems. This role requires Chaotix to (1) find a pro-town role (2) have the pro-town role be dead and (3) find a townie who is willing to voluntarily die. That's pretty convoluted, especially when you consider that the role has no ability to find pro-town roles. As such, the only people this role can reliably resurrect are dead pro-town roles whose identities are publicly known. If the identity is publicly known, that pro-town role is just going to get killed again immediately. Basically, Chaotix's claimed role is incredibly difficult to use and useless except in a very few select situations. It's not realistic and I don't believe it.

2) Chaotix's role gives him a legitimate excuse for digging for pro-town role identities. Since resurrecting townies is worthless based on the sacrifice requirement, it's only useful for pro-town roles. So, he can ask for the IDs of these people all over the place. He subtly probed me for pro-town role IDs on a few occasions with this excuse.

3) Chaotix worked very hard to keep Sasaki from being lynched:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hey, Tincow,

I know this is a sudden change, but I just had an idea that could make Sasaki useful to us, even if he is a mafioso.

I've offered him a deal: his life now, in exchange for it later when I need to revive a pro-town role. Basically the same that I did with Winston Hughes, but with a higher priority should the opportunity arise.

I realize that you may not want to support this, but I would very much appreciate it. If I don't have your help, then Sasaki will get lynched no matter what- so the plan is an insta-fail if you don't, which is better than it working and then me not having your support later.

If you choose to help me out, could you also ask Garuda to protect me for the following night phase? The chances are that, if Sasaki is mafia, he will attempt to kill me before I can sacrifice him. If I had Garuda protecting me, then we could lynch Sasaki if he did attack, and if you die because you didn't have protection, I could bring you back to life with Winston.

If Sasaki really is innocent, then there will be no problems, and you and the other power roles will have gained another "extra life".

-Chaotix

How do you know Sasaki will actually cooperate?

Well, that's why I'm waiting on his answer via PM. If he refuses, then we can just lynch him.

But it's probably in his best interest, whichever role he is, to accept.

Right, but how can you know he'll really accept, even if he says he does. Presumably he could tell you yes, and tell 'khaan no.

Well, the assumption is that if he kills one of us, the town will lynch him. If he's really a townie, there's no reason for him not to do so; he knows that dying to bring back a pro-town would serve in the town's favor. So, if he tricks me at some point and refuses, we still will have caught a mafioso. It's a risk I'm willing to take.

What's more, I'm going to lead him on and make him believe it's a "blood contract", as an added security.

He's also just contacted me, and has accepted the offer. What will you do?

I've got to be honest, I don't think this is a good idea. If Sasaki is mafia, he gets to live and kill again and he won't honor the deal. If he's town, he's still Sasaki and I don't think he'll voluntarily sacrifice himself. In addition, if we let Sasaki walk here it'll be harder to get the votes on him again later. If you can persuade people to change their votes, I won't try to stop it, but I'm keeping mine where it is.

That said, you have indeed made yourself very vulnerable with this move. I will discuss the situation with the doctor and see who he thinks should be protected.

Thanks. By the way, Sasaki agreed again, even when I told him it was a blood contract. I think he is indeed willing to sacrifice himself, if he gets to live now.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hello, Sasaki.

The way the votes are going this round, it is pretty likely you are going to be lynched, unless you feel you can wriggle your way out of it.

If you think you are going to die, then I suggest you reveal your true role to me before it becomes illegal to do so. If you really have a pro-town role, then it will probably benefit the town better for you to be alive than dead. I can make sure that you are brought back to life to help us again... but first I will need some convincing that you really are what you claim to be.

If you think you can survive without my help, then you don't have to tell me anything. But bringing you back to life if you die will have a cost to it, as well... and if I do not know that the gain will be greater than that, I will not attempt it.

-Chaotix

I'm not a pro town role. Plain townie.

Sasaki

How about a deal, Sasaki?

You're claiming that you're a basic townie. In that case, it's senseless for us to lynch you. There are far more useful things you can do then get lynched. So here is my proposal:

If I can get the town to pass you up for a better candidate, then you must pledge that you will allow me to use your life at a later point in the game. You would serve the town much better if you died in order to bring a pro-town role back to life.

What do you say?

Sure, I'll die to bring back a pro town.

Sasaki

I'll see what I can do, but the town doesn't trust me, either, and I can't make any promises.

Just a precaution- by giving me this consent, you are signing a "blood contract". Once you have agreed, you cannot take it back once I need you. That being said, are you still going to proceed?

Yes. Are you protected enough that you can explain to the town?

Sasaki

And now that I've basically got him believing this, as long as I am kept alive, if he tries anything I can sacrifice him and he'll believe he must go along with it.

I'm actually starting to believe he's telling the truth now. Would he go this far if he was a mafioso? If he knew he was going to be used to bring back a pro-town role, even if he survived, would he go along with it?

In that situation, I would take death without bringing back a pro-town if I were mafia

If I were him, I'd go along with it when facing certain death by lynching.

That was a lot of work to save Sasaki under the circumstances. Why would a pro-town role risk his neck to save someone who was either (1) a mafioso or (2) a townie? The reason Chaotix gave was that Sasaki 'agreed' to be a sacrifice later in the game to resurrect a dead pro-town role to be named later. Who in their right mind would trust anyone, let alone Sasaki, to fulfill that bargain under these circumstances?

Also note that the PM Chaotix sent to Sasaki is identical to the one he sent me when I was about to be lynched. Chaotix has told me he made a similar deal with Winston Hughes on Day 1:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Alright, I was on the verge of doing a reveal to save Sasaki, but I decided it wasn't worth it in the end.

Sasaki's not going to get any more help from me; I can't continue to risk my own neck for him, whether or not he is a townie is irrelevant on that point. He's going to get lynched, and I won't be happy, but it's the only sensible option at this point in the round.

Chances are whatever effort I might have made wouldn't have amounted to enough turnover votes anyway. I might have even gotten myself lynched.

In any case, I only have 1 townie that I can use on the spot to revive a pro-town, and that's Winston Hughes, whom I saved on Day 1. If you know or believe any more players to be basic townies, please let me know when I might need them. This business of saving townies from the brink of a lynch is not really working on my end.

Essentially, Chaotix would have us believe he's a pro-town role who's voluntarily revealing his identity to every single person we choose to lynch. That's possibly the world's worst survival strategy for a pro-town role.

4) After the end of Day 3, I told Chaotix that I trusted him and gave him a secret code so that if I died I could ID pro-town roles to him in the thread without anyone noticing (since I have otherwise refused to give him pro-town role IDs for security purposes). On Night 4, I was attacked for the first time by the mafia. Looks like the mafia wanted me to use that code.

5) I roleblocked Chaotix on N5, and Yama did not kill for the first time in the game. Note that Yama's absense is not accounted for by Sasaki's death, because Yama appeared on N4, when I was blocking Sasaki.

Vote: Chaotix

[Andres]

but I just had an idea that could make Sasaki useful to us, even if he is a mafioso.

Really now, Chaotix. Mafiosi are lynched, period. If you're townie, you don't "use" them for whatever purpose, you take them out, period.

Vote : Chaotix

[woad&fangs]

wow

vote: chaotix

That sounds like a VERY good case against him.

[Scienter]

Busted!

Vote:Chaotix

[Thermal]

Hey, that's my job!

------------------

Nonsense, without my vote you wouldn't have had the power to create such a wonderful case.

[Winston Hughes]

Chaotix did tell me about this supposed ability of his, and asked me if I would be prepared to give up my life to save someone more useful to the town cause. Frankly, I thought he was just testing me to see my reaction, and said that I would (which was true only to the extent that I would die to save someone who I knew to have a useful ability).

Since his death now seems assured (and fully deserved), I won't jump on the bandwagon right now. Instead, I'd going to vote: johnhughthom once more, in the hope that he'll give some reason for his latest unexplained vote.

[Double A]

Since when would Sasaki agree to die as a plain townie?

Faking PM's + faking role = scumtell

vote: Chaotix