Changing Camillan Principes

[Watchman]

...don't Camillian Principes use spears for melee though...?

[Atilius]

The issue is that the quote (a fragment) indicates the principes are wielding their spears two-handed, so carrying javelins would be a problem:

Those who fight in close combat with cavalry spears grasped by the middle with both hands and who usually save the day in battles are called principes by the Romans.

- Dionysios of Halikarnassos, 20.11

It's difficult to know what to make of this passage, and there are indications that it's a late insertion.

[Watchman]

It would also preclude the use of shields which makes even less sense, and basically comes across as having been pulled wholesale out of someone's derriere. Or a case of Lost In Translation and what have you.

[Watchman]

Addendum: given that the javelins would in any case be thrown before contact, until which even a pike can be and usually is carried one-handed...

[Dutchhoplite]

Yes, it looks like a mess but i still would like to use them i a transitionory way...

And i don't think this change is per se ahistorical. It's not like i want to give them uzi's ;)

[Dutchhoplite]

If i change this:

;248
type             roman infantry principes early
dictionary       roman_infantry_principes_early      ; Principes
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_infantry_principesearly, 40, 0, 1.15
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_centurion
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_standard
mount_effect     chariot +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  9, 9, 4, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, -1, -3
stat_mental      13, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1046, 262, 50, 80, 1046
ownership        seleucid, slave

Into this:

;248
type             roman infantry principes early
dictionary       roman_infantry_principes_early      ; Principes
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_infantry_principesearly, 40, 0, 1.15
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_centurion
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_standard
mount_effect     chariot +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_pri_attr    light_spear
stat_sec         14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  9, 9, 4, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, -1, -3
stat_mental      13, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1046, 262, 50, 80, 1046
ownership        seleucid, slave

Would that do the trick??

[Watchman]

Not really, it'll make them stab the other guy with their pila. Did you try reducing the primary-weapon attack values to 0 ? I was hoping that'd sidestep the throwing-spear being the "primary" weapon on the model...

[Dutchhoplite]

stat_pri         0, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap

Like this?