Having trouble using javelin cavalry

[Zim]

Does anyone else find javelin cavalry (without underhand spears as secondary weapons) hard to use? I'm playing a KH as Sicily game where I've gotten around to conquering southern Italy. I really want to Tarantine Cavalry (and also tend to keep at least one unit of the low tier Greek Javelin cavalry around for realism) but I've never had much luck with them againt anything but elephants.

Maybe I'm missing something. I usually run them around the enemy's flanks to pepper them with javelins, but don't get many kills. Obviously charging with them is out, except int he most dire of circumstances. I've never had much luck using them against opposing cavalry, but that may be more a matter of my doing something wrong...

[anubis88]

The kill ratio of javelins is indeed very low, so even if you attack the unarmoured back of some units you won't get many kills. In such cases akonistai would be better then the Tarentines, since they have 140 + men in their unit, so javalin cavalry could be almost uselles against infantry, especially infantry with decent armour.
Of course they are very usefull against elephants, chariots and other cavalry... I don't know why you don't have luck with the Tarantines against cavalry. They usually massacer anything that is less armoured then them

[lionhard]

iv found the key with missile cav is to get their experience up then they are actually useful, their missiles last longer and do more damage and even in hand to hand combat they can do some damage but till then they r only really good for running down fleeing enemies.

[seienchin]

iv found the key with missile cav is to get their experience up then they are actually useful, their missiles last longer and do more damage and even in hand to hand combat they can do some damage but till then they r only really good for running down fleeing enemies.

Mmh...
Their missiles do not last longer...
They are not connectet to experience. Anyway missile cavallery isnt useless at all, they just dont kill anybody in normal melee.
Even with low charging values charge them in the back of the enemy. Esspecially two or more units simultaneously rout anybody and the best part is that these kind of cavs really kill routing enemies really quick.
In huge battles they are really usefull, but dont expect them to do anything by themselves.
I once fought with a allied italian general with 63 men against the romans and he couldnt even kill the enemy general with 30 men... An allied Steppe general would have killed the whole enemy army...

[Duguntz]

Javelin Cav are useless. Point to the line. they have no charge value, no melee use (appart from those with Over hand spear... but even then it's a very poor last resort unit) and even as missile, Archer cav are waaaaay better. and as for the javelin vs elephants thing, foot javelners are better as they have more units

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Javelin Cav are useless. Point to the line. they have no charge value, no melee use (appart from those with Over hand spear... but even then it's a very poor last resort unit) and even as missile, Archer cav are waaaaay better. and as for the javelin vs elephants thing, foot javelners are better as they have more units

The numerical superiority and low cost of skirmisher infantry does make them, imo, more cost effective than their mounted counterparts when it comes to attacking with javelins, however skirmisher cavalry should not be relegated to the bowels of archaism.

The skirmisher cavalry, depending on the weapon used, is best against unarmored targets and attacks from the rear. Cavalry archers can absolutely decimate lightly/un-armored unit from huge range, as can javelin cavalry albeit from a reduced range. The real key to using them is to choose your targets wisely.

Granted, not all battles will be fought against cloth wearing or naked soldiers, and not all armies will have those units conveniently on the flanks, but that is where the added mobility of the skirmisher cavalry bears fruit. Even if you can just run them around the end and force a couple line units to sit back and block a charge - you've just reduced the number of men your own line will be fighting at the same time. Additionally, as was done in history, you can sucker in heavy cavalry to the point of exhaustion with feints, or draw them into your phalanxes/general infantry to hack to pieces in prolonged melee.

Sadly, skirmisher cavalry can not always be the deciding devastating force that we expect from heavy cavalry, however their role is crucial to many battles, albeit often as a secondary or supporting force. Personally, I gain as much satisfaction being tactical and sneaky by using these units to harass and otherwise disrupt the enemy just as much as I enjoy a good solid cavalry charge completely obliterating a unit, sending men flying in the air, and causing an instantaneous rout.

[A Very Super Market]

I've found that javelin cavalry somehow do better in an extended melee than most lights, and even some of the mediums. Tarantine elites, Numidians, and Iberian cavalry seem to be a lot more difficult to kill than Leuce Epos, or Illyrians.

[lionhard]

I thought the missiles last longer the more experience archers, slingers or any missile unit has?

[vartan]

I thought the missiles last longer the more experience archers, slingers or any missile unit has?

Ammunition amount does not change with experience. It is constant.

[seienchin]

Javelin Cav are useless. Point to the line. they have no charge value, no melee use (appart from those with Over hand spear... but even then it's a very poor last resort unit) and even as missile, Archer cav are waaaaay better. and as for the javelin vs elephants thing, foot javelners are better as they have more units

I respect your opinion, but dont forget that skirmisher cavallery is best at killing routing enemies. I find them usefull otherwise too, but you cant argue their value at pursuing enemies.
Still I cant understand why the numidians are so weak in EB although they were so famous in the ancient times.

[Watchman]

Do you have any idea how hard it was to even try making a bunch of guys in shirts battleworthy under the EB stat system ?
At least they throw a mean javelin...

[lionhard]

I respect your opinion, but dont forget that skirmisher cavallery is best at killing routing enemies. I find them usefull otherwise too, but you cant argue their value at pursuing enemies.
Still I cant understand why the numidians are so weak in EB although they were so famous in the ancient times.

Thats a good point about the numidians, the numidian skirmish cavalry back in the day was unmatched, they were 1 of the reasons for hannibals successes over in italy and when the romans allied with them later on they were a main factor in beating carthage at zama. So how come when i face cavalry with the same stature . i.e. germanic skirmish cav the numidians get slapped or are just as good, they shud slap all other skirmish cav :S

[KARTLOS]

to me they are usually cavalry of last resort, if nothing else is available i will recruit some.

they ARE usefull for attacking and distracting enemey generals. If you draw away their general then you are often able to destroy his army before he realises.

horse archers can perform most of their funtions however e.g chasing down routers.

any cavalry (javelin, and HA) can be used in an orchestrated charge to crack annd route enemy units.

e.g vs a phalanx engage with infantry from the front, charge a general in the side and light cav in the back. if timed right can produce a route.

light cavalry are also useful for blocking enemy units - i use them sacrificially in this manner occasionally. and are very useful for catching a routing enemy family member before he escapes of the map.

in essence - dont worry too much about their javelin function, make use of their speed and unit size and price.

[Cambyses]

Light and cheap jav cav are indeed useless IMO. However, the heavier versions are a lot more durable in melee, in fact they are often very effective cavalry killers themselves. They still get all the advantages of other cavalry when charging in terms of morale effects and mass etc. Its only lack of lances that make them less effective.

[Raiuga]

I usually find skirmisher cavalry very useful. I use them first to draw the enemy cavalry away from the main army and them chop them into pieces. With enemy's cavalry gone, my own cavalry have the way clear to make havoc among the enemy lines. Its also useful for single out units from the main enemy line (when the numbers are not at your side). You have to see them as "a pain in the ass for the enemy" kind of unit

[Nirvanish]

I would guess that numidian strength was in their cohesion and swift riding skill. These cannot really be considered in EB because when you tell a unit to do something they will, so this quality does not come into play for select units.

[Cute Wolf]

Yeah, numidian cavalry are somewhat Ironic, I found that plain Hippakontistai just do better at everything except for the charge, and they are a lot cheaper.

Javelin armed cavalry should have used as light harrasment against other cavalry (especially heavy cav without shield, hetairoi are perfect prey), router chaser (which their close range javelins will do wonders), tactical elephant killer (hide them or made them pick the elephant routing at early part of game), or to be sacrified against enemy formation, to lure them into your trap (quite much the same to do with cheap crappy cav)

[seienchin]

I would guess that numidian strength was in their cohesion and swift riding skill. These cannot really be considered in EB because when you tell a unit to do something they will, so this quality does not come into play for select units.

Yeah, but in several ocasions they slaughtered and routed the enemy cavallery in the punic wars. Hard to believe to slaughter anybody in a direct melee in EB with them

Still I love them and they are priceless at pursuing the enemy. Something the Tarantine Cavallery also cant do...

[Cute Wolf]

Yeah, but in several ocasions they slaughtered and routed the enemy cavallery in the punic wars. Hard to believe to slaughter anybody in a direct melee in EB with them

Still I love them and they are priceless at pursuing the enemy. Something the Tarantine Cavallery also cant do...

But actually, the Numidian Noble cav was among the best cav u can get, Gldgmtk has a good charge and could kill everyone they meet in melee (except when charging long sarrisae of the Ptolies of course)

[gamegeek2]

I find Leuce Epos a very good auxiliary unit, does a fine job of charging flanks and the javelins can be of some use. However, their javelin attack from the flank doesn't begin to compare to an infantry javelin volley in the flank (a devastating attack, and a favorite of mine as barbarian factions).

Numidians in EB are just a worse version of the good-quality Leuce Epos.

I sometimes include a unit of Hetairoi Aspidophoroi in my Hellenic fullstacks. As many have mentioned, skirmisher cav are invaluable for chasing routers, and these guys are some of the best light infantry killers you can get - armoured well enough to not get hurt too much by missiles (thanks to the shield), but fast enough to kill them quickly. The javelins do a number on the poor sods as well. Tarantinoi do a similar job.

[Zim]

Thanks for the tips. I'm starting to think that I just expected too much from my javelin cavalry. I always expect anything on a horse to be able to charge.

[Yarema]

Javelin cavalry is great, but it is a supporting force. While playing Romans, Maks, Greeks, or even Lusotanan (who are javelin cav experts), one must remember javelin cav cannot replace heavy inf as the battle deciding force.
Personally, I find javelin cav extremely useful when playing Romani or Iberia. They can destroy enemy heavy cavalry quickly, efficiently and with low or no casualties.

[satalexton]

well they cant charge, but they can chop up and chase with their choppas! Charge with heavy cav with these guys right at their back, fun chopping fun!

You can even try doing this frontally if you dare. I don't reccommend it, but it works.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Javelin-armed skirmisher cavalry must always be treated as part of a combined-arms force. They can distract enemy heavy cavalry and lure them away from the main infantry battle. Or, if you have your own heavy cavalry, use them to destroy the enemy cavalry, then use the javelin skirmisher cavalry to ride round the rear of the enemy army and distract it from behind. This works well in combination with a frontal infantry assault. They can charge also, but only when the enemy are already wavering.

[lionhard]

I just compared the different jav cav's and the numidian cav have better stamina than the european equivilant so, their ya go! they will endure more in a long battle which is good, but i think with good practice and fine tuning these jav cav can be an awesome machine against the enemy lines

[Zim]

Numidians also have underarm held spear, so tehy still have an ok charge going for them. They drop like flies if you aren't careful, but the ones that survive can be merged into high exp units.

[machinor]

I love skirmisher cav, either more or less armored ones like Hetairoi Aspidophoroi or Tarantines (my favourite) or masses of cheap ones like Hippakontistai.
Apart from their use in cavalry combat (lure enemy heavy cav away, exhaust them, pepper them with javelins, then pin them down in melee and ultimately charge them with your heavy cav) they are exceptionally useful against heavy infantry. Extensive use of Hippakontistai was the key to my victories agianst the Romans in my early Epeiros campaign, when I had only few heavy infantry at my disposal (my Phalanxes were useless against the Roman war machine, being flanked all the time). First of all, Hippakontistai would lure enemy heavy infantry away from the main fight since a concentrated attack against my line would crush it without problem. So only a part of the enemy heavy inf. would engage my line which in turn would hold. Hippakontistai then exhaust the heavy inf. pursuing it rather quickly. A few peppers with javelins and they are ready to be charged in the back by skirmisher cav. If they don't break, they are decimated. The skirmisher cav do not engage in further melee fights but simply return to the main line, leaving the heavy inf out in the open, far away from the main fight and thus unable to take part in the battle. The skirmisher cav then finish off remaining light inf together with your own light inf and finally charge the rear of the enemy line which by that time should already be exhausted and decimated enough to brake and run... only to be run down by your light skirmisher cav. Mission accomplished.
Light skirmisher cav are especially useful against factions with lots of heavy infantry like Celts and Romans or to protect your heavy infantry from the likes of lightly armoured heavy inf killers like Iberians.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

First of all, Hippakontistai would lure enemy heavy infantry away from the main fight since a concentrated attack against my line would crush it without problem. So only a part of the enemy heavy inf. would engage my line which in turn would hold. Hippakontistai then exhaust the heavy inf. pursuing it rather quickly. The skirmisher cav do not engage in further melee fights but simply return to the main line, leaving the heavy inf out in the open, far away from the main fight and thus unable to take part in the battle.

Good tactic!