The United Kingdom Elections 2010

[rory_20_uk]

How did these nations get all the foreign debt? The same way we did - our leaders. Massive drain on GDP? Yup - just like ours. So why should theirs be cancelled? All that'll do is make the next lot of debt more expensive as the markets factor in the odds of default.
Export of raw materials? Rather like Australia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia... China and germany export manufactured goods. Is this wrong too?

These countries should be treated as equals. Show they're sorting things out and they will be able to get funding in the bond market. Get a decent credit rating and debt will decrease in cost. Embezzel / kill your own citizens and remain in the dark ages.

[InsaneApache]

How did these nations get all the foreign debt?

Repeat ad infinitum.

The tories, the tories, the tories.

Now go back and do some medicalling or whatever they call it these days.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

How did these nations get all the foreign debt? The same way we did - our leaders. Massive drain on GDP? Yup - just like ours. So why should theirs be cancelled? All that'll do is make the next lot of debt more expensive as the markets factor in the odds of default...

Rory:

Are you still confusing sensible economics with what governments do?

Most governments in the West would be sent to jail en masse for fraud and/or malfeasance if their national budgets were evaluated using the legal rubrics that are applied to their own citizens and corporate entities.

IA:

While it may be personally comforting to you to heap all of the blame upon previous Tory governments, I suspect you'd find that pretty much all of the governments from Atlee forward (and maybe many before then) had a hand in this debt game.

[Louis VI the Fat]

and have i missed anyone out?

I was under the influence of recreational drugs! Now that I've regained my sanity, I predict: a hung parliament, Brown out, Cameron PM, etc

IA:

While it may be personally comforting to you to heap all of the blame upon previous Tory governments, I suspect you'd find that pretty much all of the governments from Atlee forward (and maybe many before then) had a hand in this debt game.

Yeah, I too am getting a bit annoyed with IA blaming all of Britain's ills on the Tories. Cheeky socialist.

[Furunculus]

anyone else going to join the election sweep-stakes:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JAG (27/02/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2440038

Furunculus (29/04/10) - Narrow Conservative win:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2459341

Furunculus (29/03/10) - Narrow Conservative win:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2459341

Idaho (16/04/10) - Narrow Labour win:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2471029

Rory (16/04/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2471056

CountArch (23/04/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2476911

Banquo's Ghost (23/04/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2476913

Louis (29/04/10) - Conservative led minority government:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2480070

Louis (23/04/10) - Labour led minority government:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2476925

Tbilicus (23/04/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2476926

Insane Apache (23/04/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2476935

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and have i missed anyone out?

p.s. you can can change your vote, but the original will also be retained..........

[Furunculus]

Beskar, you playing?

[InsaneApache]

IA:

While it may be personally comforting to you to heap all of the blame upon previous Tory governments, I suspect you'd find that pretty much all of the governments from Atlee forward (and maybe many before then) had a hand in this debt game.

No you're right. I must try to do better. I will do my utmost to keep my socialists tendencies in check.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

No you're right. I must try to do better. I will do my utmost to keep my socialists tendencies in check.

Louis, not I, jabbed at you for being a socialist. I was simply suggesting that there was PLENTY of blame to go around and that the Tories were unlikely to be the exclusive owners of it.


If an outsider can have a vote, I say: Tory-led coalition with Lib Dems (both holding their noses but keeping Labour out). New elections scheduled within 24 months (though the vote may be a bit past that).

[InsaneApache]

Louis, not I, jabbed at you for being a socialist. I was simply suggesting that there was PLENTY of blame to go around and that the Tories were unlikely to be the exclusive owners of it.


If an outsider can have a vote, I say: Tory-led coalition with Lib Dems (both holding their noses but keeping Labour out). New elections scheduled within 24 months (though the vote may be a bit past that).

I was being ironic in the post you highlighted. We are indeed two countries seperated by a common language.

[al Roumi]

How did these nations get all the foreign debt? The same way we did - our leaders.

Indeed, however Western leaders are (believe it or not) held on a tighter leash. They can not (usually) go to the nepotistic & embezzeling lengths afforded to leaders of many developing countries.

Why are leaders of developing countries able to be so shamelessly self serving? They are not held to account by either the countries' inadequate governance systems, or they have corrupted these systems through patronage.

Why should the west write-off swathes of third world debt? Because that debt is a burden on the country and its people, not the old rulers who took the loans and profited from them. If there is one thing the west can do to help developing countries "help themselves", it is to reduce or remove the shackle of debt.

Export of raw materials? Rather like Australia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia... China and germany export manufactured goods. Is this wrong too?

Indeed, export of raw materials is great, providing its all set up fairly and resources are not being irresponsably extracted with no benefit to the state or its population. Resource extraction (Lumber, diamonds, oil) provide juicy incomes for cash starved countries (almost money for nothing) which can also have some awful effects, from driving wars (the wars in DRC have been famously funded by diamonds and lumber) to reducing the incentives for economic and labour reform that would foster economic growth through industry/services.

As to manufacturing, not every country can become a manufacturing powerhouse. Opportunities exist but a country must be able to exploit them at the right moment. E.g. The UK itself became an industrial giant through its adaptation of technology (driven by relatively high UK labour costs) which (after years of refinement) made production cheaper than manual labour and increased productivity. China is the current world factory because of its rock bottom labour costs, good infrastructure and permissible (sort of anyway) political environment. Not many countries can rival China for these conditions.

These countries should be treated as equals. Show they're sorting things out and they will be able to get funding in the bond market. Get a decent credit rating and debt will decrease in cost. Embezzel / kill your own citizens and remain in the dark ages.

They aren't equals though. Most developing countries (by definition, you might say) do not have the same capacity for governance and administration as western countries. Even if they have the structures, there are a multitude of factors impeding their full use for the country's development e.g. lack of civil society pressure for openness and reform.

[Furunculus]

anyone else going to join the election sweep-stakes:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JAG (27/02/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2440038

Furunculus (29/04/10) - Narrow Conservative win:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2459341

Furunculus (29/03/10) - Narrow Conservative win:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2459341

Idaho (16/04/10) - Narrow Labour win:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2471029

Rory (16/04/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2471056

CountArch (23/04/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2476911

Banquo's Ghost (29/04/10) - Conservative led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2480078

Banquo's Ghost (23/04/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2476913

Louis (29/04/10) - Conservative led minority government:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2480070

Louis (23/04/10) - Labour led minority government:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2476925

Tbilicus (23/04/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2476926

Insane Apache (23/04/10) - Labour led hung-parliament:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2476935

Beskar (23/04/10) - Conservative led minority government:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2477082

Alh_P (29/04/10) - Conservative led minority government:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2480111

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and have i missed anyone out?

p.s. you can can change your vote, but the original will also be retained..........

[Idaho]

How did these nations get all the foreign debt? The same way we did - our leaders. Massive drain on GDP? Yup - just like ours. So why should theirs be cancelled? All that'll do is make the next lot of debt more expensive as the markets factor in the odds of default.
Export of raw materials? Rather like Australia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia... China and germany export manufactured goods. Is this wrong too?

These countries should be treated as equals. Show they're sorting things out and they will be able to get funding in the bond market. Get a decent credit rating and debt will decrease in cost. Embezzel / kill your own citizens and remain in the dark ages.

Do you have no awareness of history? Don't you know what has happened to popular democratic movements in Zaire? In El Salvador? In Chile? Etc, etc...

They got strangled at birth by whichever western state/corporation had control of the raw materials.

[Furunculus]

funny, i thought it was a pretty even contest, with brown getting some good answers, cameron more, and clegg coming across as vacillating.

[Beskar]

funny, i thought it was a pretty even contest, with brown getting some good answers, cameron more, and clegg coming across as vacillating.

Haven't seen it yet, what do you think the main points were?

[Furunculus]

it'll take time, ninety minutes of debate takes time to walk ones mind through, at least mine does, i can only go off gut instinct at this point.

too much red wine.

brown was appealing to poor working class

cameron was appealing to southern aspiring middle class

clegg was appealing to hand-wringing professionals

[CountArach]

funny, i thought it was a pretty even contest, with brown getting some good answers, cameron more, and clegg coming across as vacillating.

Cameron won the debate according to every poll conducted with Clegg coming in second (with a tie for first in one poll).

[Myrddraal]

I thought the debate was good from all parties. I wouldn't agree that Cameron was the clear winner, his failure to even try to defend some of his policies when they were attacked was poor. It gave the impression that he wanted to hide those policies and pretend they weren't there. Clegg made a lot of sense sometimes, but I also thought he often relied too much on contradicting his opponents debating style rather than attacking their policies, describing the debate between Gordon and David as political point scoring. I was most surprised by Brown's performance in that I expected him to come across worse. There's no real attack on his policies which stuck in my mind as a particularly good one, other than perhaps the regional development agencies.

In terms of my expectations:

Cameron: Slightly worse
Clegg: About the same, if slightly worse
Brown: Much better

It's probably not the best reason to vote for a party I realise, but I don't want to vote conservative, and Labour don't feature in my constituency anyway, so it looks like I'm going to vote Lib Dem.

Looking at the policies of all three parties, there's a lot which I disagree with with all of them. The party I've been least impressed by has been the tory party. I've been impressed by some policies of the Labour Party, and some of the Lib Dem party. Those policies on which I disagree with them are also opposed by the other parties. Yet my constituency is a safe Tory seat, with virtually no Labour support. A stronger mandate for the Lib Dem party might see those views wich I share with them getting a greater voice in the commons. You never know...