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  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Yes, it's a case of the best of the worst.

    Labour: discredited (did they ever have any credit?)
    Conservatives: too keen to get into power to have any thoughts what to do when there, probably too "fair weather"
    Lib Dems: Leftie, pro Europe. Too concerned with giving power elsewhere to have policy; too fringe to need policy.
    BNP: statutory IQ being less than 75 obligitory since race admission no longer required.
    UKIP: One policy party. What would they do with any real power? Might be useful as a force if no party has a majority to force the one issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    I haven't voted since '97 and probably won't vote again. Democracy in this country is an illusion, whoever you vote for you still get the same corrupt self serving scum that look after the interests of the rich elites.
    I'd broadly agree with both of those assessments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Conservatives - right-wing / libertarian
    Labour - left-wing / authoritarian
    LibDem - left-wing / libertarian
    Conservatives are libertarian?!? They may well advertise so, but they are very much authoritarian. They were the party who first mooted ID cards, who introduced the draconian police powers and public order laws. They are all in favour of the liberty of rich people doing what they want with their money, but beyond that - no way.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Conservatives are libertarian?!? They may well advertise so, but they are very much authoritarian. They were the party who first mooted ID cards, who introduced the draconian police powers and public order laws. They are all in favour of the liberty of rich people doing what they want with their money, but beyond that - no way.
    sure they are not a libertarian party, there is an authoritarian theme to Tory politics just as there is a libertarian theme that derives from the Whig rump that joined the Tories back in the day, but they are libertarian party insomuch as it exists in the UK.

    labour should defer to no-one when it comes to pushing ID cards and public order laws.

    but more importantly; labour also define the authoritarian genre of british politics by introducing legislation and regulation at a phenomenal rate, and justifying the intrusion into individual behaviour by citing the benefit of the many.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    but they are libertarian party insomuch as it exists in the UK.
    Errr...not quite.

    http://lpuk.org/

    I like what they are saying. A lot.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    To all those saying to Tories aren't Libertarian, I'm pretty certain the US Republican party is Libertarian, and look how supposedly "right wing" they are. Libertarianism holds very different values from modern "liberalism". A "libertarian" set of principles are based on aspects such as the upholding of individual rights, separation of religion from the sate and small government. Starting to see the difference now?
    Last edited by tibilicus; 01-05-2010 at 12:18.


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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by tibilicus View Post
    To all those saying to Tories aren't Libertarian, I'm pretty certain the US Republican party is Libertarian, and look how supposedly "right wing" they are. Libertarianism holds very different values from modern "liberalism". A "libertarian" set of principles are based on aspects such as the upholding of individual rights, separation of religion from the sate and small government. Starting to see the difference now?
    The Patriot Act was a great example of this?
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    The Patriot Act was a great example of this?
    you mean the legislation that was rushed into place once the american government browned their pants after realising that crazy nutcases with big bushy beards were quite happy knocking yanky sky-scrapers down, while they were full of people?

    not defending the patriot act by any means, but it could reasonably be viewed as a product of its time, just saying.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 01-05-2010 at 15:00.
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    you mean the legislation that was rushed into place once the american government browned their pants after realising that crazy nutcases with big bushy beards were quite happy knocking yanky sky-scrapers down, while they were full of people?
    As I recall the chaps that "knocked down the skyscrapers" were for the most part clean shaven.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Errr...not quite.

    http://lpuk.org/

    I like what they are saying. A lot.
    i agree with what you say, but would argue that given the UK's FPTP system and their electoral percentage they simply don't count as part of the active fabric of british politics.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Errr...not quite.

    http://lpuk.org/

    I like what they are saying. A lot.
    I got 80% on their test. Obviously, the first and second points were "illiberal", but then again, I am obviously a Liberatarian Socialist.
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    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I got 80% on their test.
    20% I loved how they told me why my opinions were wrong.

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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I got 80% on their test. Obviously, the first and second points were "illiberal", but then again, I am obviously a Liberatarian Socialist.
    Your Results

    Well done!
    You scored 90%
    You are a liberal
    --------------------------------
    We should raise taxes on the rich so we can redistribute wealth to the poor?
    Your answer was liberal

    It is illiberal for people to be taxed at a different rate based on their income. Also rich people are the most mobile members of society. If they are over-taxed they will simply move themselves, their assets and capital offshore. Which will in turn decrease investment in the country.
    --------------------------------
    We should get rid of the minimum wage?
    Your answer was liberal

    The minimum wage is an illiberal restriction on free trade. It also places an artificial value on the cost of labour which makes it more difficult for low skilled workers to find work, and therefore gain experience and training.
    --------------------------------
    The state should bailout large corporations in financial distress?
    Your answer was liberal

    This is an illiberal incursion on the free market — at the taxpayer's expense. No company should ever receive a taxpayer backed bailout. It encourages bad financial practices and corruption between the state, corporations and unions.
    --------------------------------
    It should be illegal for members of the public to own guns?
    Your answer was liberal

    In a liberal country people can protect themselves as they see fit. Remember if someone owns a gun it does not mean they will murder anyone. In addition it is very dangerous for a people to allow their state to have a monopoly over weaponry and therefore force.
    --------------------------------
    People who hold racist or extreme views should be allowed to publicly express their ideas?
    Your answer was liberal

    To not would be a gross and illiberal infringement on freedom of speech. And it sets a dangerous precedent for further reducing freedom of speech. It must be noted that defining things as extreme or dangerous is a purely subjective activity. Therefore the state will only define things as extreme if they pose a threat to it. But not necessarily to the people.
    --------------------------------
    The state should make people change their behaviour to tackle climate change?
    Your answer was liberal

    In a liberal society the state will not force any law abiding person to behave in a certain way as this is an infringement on freedom of thought and action. This is an especially acute issue when you consider there is still great debate about whether climate change is caused directly by human action. People should note that the state have a lot to gain in terms of social control from climate change catastrophe. Along with large corporations who will find it easier to cope with environmental regulations than their smaller competitors.
    --------------------------------
    It is wrong for the police to retain the DNA of anyone not serving a prison sentence?
    Your answer was liberal

    There is no reason why in a liberal society that the state should be allowed to steal the property of a person when they have not been convicted of any crime or are currently serving a prison sentence.
    --------------------------------
    The state should ban people from watching violent pornography?
    Your answer was liberal

    This is an illiberal incursion on freedom of thought. It is not the business of the state to involve itself in the sexual preferences of consenting adults.
    --------------------------------
    It is wrong for democratic nations to overthrow foreign dictators?
    Your answer was illiberal

    It is illiberal, and a sign of gross arrogance, for one state to impose their will on another in this way. These issues are for the people of said state to resolve themselves with their leader(s).
    --------------------------------
    Free market capitalism should be forced on other nations to help create a better world?
    Your answer was liberal

    It is illiberal for one state to impose their way of life on another. A liberal foreign policy involves free trade with all willing participants. It does not involve forcing states to behave in a certain way if they do not wish to.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 01-05-2010 at 15:09.
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    We should raise taxes on the rich so we can redistribute wealth to the poor?
    Your answer was liberal

    It is illiberal for people to be taxed at a different rate based on their income. Also rich people are the most mobile members of society.
    ...
    We should get rid of the minimum wage?
    Your answer was liberal

    The minimum wage is an illiberal restriction on free trade. It also places an artificial value on the cost of labour which makes it more difficult for low skilled workers to find work, and therefore gain experience and training.
    ...
    The state should make people change their behaviour to tackle climate change?
    Your answer was liberal

    In a liberal society the state will not force any law abiding person to behave in a certain way as this is an infringement on freedom of thought and action. This is an especially acute issue when you consider there is still great debate about whether climate change is caused directly by human action. People should note that the state have a lot to gain in terms of social control from climate change catastrophe. Along with large corporations who will find it easier to cope with environmental regulations than their smaller competitors.
    ...?

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    wazzup?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    So what constitutes an important issue? You're incredibly naive if you think that drugs policy is "irrelevant".

    Although I agree that they may be a liberal party, they are not Libertarian.
    Drugs policy is an aspect of social policy, and how you deal with it is influenced by you philosophy of the social responsibility of the state. If the role of the executive is to rule and not to perform social care then you simply identify the fatally harmful drugs, ban them, and imprison people for breaking the law the same as you would for anything else.

    On the other hand, if you believe the Executive has a social purpose you identify those drugs most socially harmful, control them and put people who break the law into some form of social program.

    The Conservatives are more Libertarian than labour, but not Liberal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    ...?
    When they use the word "Liberal" they mean what you would consider "Libertarian", preferenceing personal freedom over collective society.
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Just a few blasts from the past for you English election punters.....

    Quote Originally Posted by zelda12, in a British elections post dated 7 May 2005 View Post
    You may have neglected to mention that the Labour party has not failed in its promises in keeping the NHS and education system together and improving it. When it comes right down to it the ordinary person on the street trusts Labour more than any other party when it comes down to running the economy and investing in services. They still do not trust the Tories with those responsibilities and frankly I doubt they ever will. The reason and the only reason the Tories made such startling gains in this election was because Labour voters voted Lib Dem as a protest against the war. Now they have Tory MP's and will not make the same mistake.

    Remember one thing when the Labour Government inherited the NHS the education system public transport and almost all the other public services they were decrepit and starved of funds and any real hope. Within 8 years the NHS is rapidly rising in efficiency and expertise, schools are getting better, and public transport is finally being drawn inexorably back to Nationalisation. And of course the Economy is in the best of health and with this age of mortgages and credit cards who wants an economy that had so many fluxes it looked like a seismograph, the simple fact is people trust Labour on almost all issues a lot more than they trust the Tories.

    As such I can comfortable predict that within 10-20 years the Conservative party will be the Third Party in the country with the Lib Dems in second.

    Have a nice day.
    Quote Originally Posted by JAG in a post commenting on the Labour party 3 June 2005 View Post
    ...
    EA - I am of the opinion that a blanket benefit system like you state, however fair in theory, it is not. We should have a welfare system which is disproportionately helpful to those at the very bottom not simply equal all round. This is in fact the biggest difference between the Lib Dems and Labour - still. The Lib Dems favour a middle class welfare state, with everyone given equal chances and everyone given the same, from the lowest working class to the highest payed middle class. Where as Labour are still about giving more to those at the very bottom before anyone else and if necessary without giving anything to anyone but those in the worst off positions, it is why they are still to the left of the Lib Dems and why they are still a lefty party.

    It should be disproportionately better for those further down because it is those people who struggle most and so need more. The forms are a neccesary evil, even if it can seem the opposite.

    I'll add a few more in as time permits. Scanning back there it appears as though Gawain started about 1 thread in every 5.
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Just a few blasts from the past for you English election punters.....






    I'll add a few more in as time permits. Scanning back there it appears as though Gawain started about 1 thread in every 5.
    I actually remember Zeldas post. How sad is that?

    BTW Good digging SF
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    And now some interesting predicitions/thoughts from 3 years past....


    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost, from a thread he started 5 March 2007 View Post
    This is an interesting opinion piece for those of us interested in the struggle for power in Britain.

    Gordon Brown seems to be fading from his position as heir apparent. I don't know any of my British friends who think he can win the next general election - and several are Labour voters. David Milliband seems to think no-one can win the next election for New Labour, and that the sensible thing to do would be to stay quiet until Brown gets humiliated by the electorate and he can step in as the new New Labourite in opposition.

    Yet the columnist posits another possibility - that Blair regrets his decision and might be persuaded to stay on. There has been no popular acclaim for Brown and he's looking wounded - might the PM change his mind? If he did, could he win the next election? - despite his record, he is still a formidable campaigner, and the Tories really ought to be 20 points ahead given his woes.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Bruce Anderson: Gordon Brown's fortunes are ebbing away

    Milburn and Clarke speak for many Labour MPs who are afraid that he will not click with the voters
    Published: 05 March 2007


    The Labour Party leadership race is a bullfight without a matador. The Brown bull is charging around the ring becoming angrier and angrier, as well he might, because every few minutes a banderillero rushes in, flings a dart at him and then runs away, too fast to be gored and eviscerated. We can be certain of one thing. If a challenger does appear, it will be a cracking contest. No bull has ever been so taunted and maddened.

    Political parties which lose confidence in their leader or his heir presumptive have a difficulty. They cannot keep their worries to themselves. The confessional rapidly turns into a recording studio and the electorate listens in. Charles Clarke and Alan Milburn have been hoping to raise doubts about Gordon Brown without supplying the Tories with too much quotable material (Mr Clarke had already done that). But neither man is designed to be a tightrope walker. They can only celebrate their good fortune. Gordon Brown is not yet in charge of the safety net.

    Disregard the talk of new visions for 2020. Trying to work out what Messrs Clarke and Milburn mean by policies is like trying to carry water in a sieve. But none of this is about policy. It is about personality: Gordon Brown's personality. Charles Clarke and Alan Milburn are speaking for a lot of Labour MPs who are afraid that Mr Brown will not click with the voters. He will clunk with them, and they will clunk back.

    It is still probable that Gordon Brown will become PM. But one fear ought to be gnawing at his vitals. Where are his troops? Why have the airwaves not been inundated by Brownites, contemptuously dismissing the carpers while urging their fellow MPs to line the route for the coronation? Although David Miliband may be some way off commanding a majority of Labour MPs, he has the enthusiasts. The 50th Milibandite hopping for a chance to sign up to his campaign is far more motivated than the 50th Brownite muttering that he supposes it has to be Gordon. Last September's Brownite coup has turned into this March's collapsed soufflé.

    David Miliband must feel flattered, and alarmed. Two months ago, I am told, he regarded a leadership bid as an amusing dream, which would instantly become a nightmare if he tried to turn it into reality. That was then, long before the recent polls. Although Mr Miliband is not at all arrogant, it cannot be easy to retain your humility when so many colleagues are pressing you to have a crack at the premiership.

    Immediately after the Tory leadership contest in 1990, Douglas Hurd mused he had never really thought he could win. But a number of people whom he respected had urged him to stand. He decided that if he did not have a go, he would regret it later. If Mr Miliband did run, he would do a lot better than Douglas Hurd did. Then again, Gordon Brown would not emulate John Major's effortless generosity towards defeated rivals.

    So what are they making of all this, next door in Number 10? At present, Tony Blair seems more interested in adding new American billionaires to his Rolodex. On one point, we can be certain. Amid all the talk of legacies and saving the planet, Mr Blair has one goal at the forefront of his plans. He is determined that after leaving Downing Street, he will make more money than any previous prime minister.

    So he will, just as long as Scotland Yard does not inconvenience him. Then again, let us assume the PM does avoid serious embarrassment at the hands of Commander Yates. Tony Blair is young. There are reports that he regrets committing himself to leaving office. It cannot be long before some Labour MP goes public to beg him to reconsider.

    One Labour backbencher made an interesting comment last week. He asked me what would have happened if Bill Clinton had been able to run again in 2000. I said that he would have won. If Al Gore came that close, Clinton would surely have done better. "Precisely,'' came the reply. "But we don't have term limits. So why are we swapping Clinton for Gore?''

    I doubt if there is a way back for Mr Blair. The Labour MPs who regard him as an alien implant - GM Labour - are far more numerous than the ones who respect his election- winning record. But everything is unstable; everyone is uneasy. Outside the inner Brownite tribe, there seems to be little confidence. Where there is no way forward, the way back has its attractions.

    It is hard to know what Gordon Brown could do to make himself an attraction. There is a Budget in two weeks' time. There is no money to spend. No doubt the Chancellor will be up to his usual game of re-announcing spending increases which he has announced several times already. These days, however, everyone is aware of the tricks. The commentators will rush to the small print to deconstruct the Budget, exposing the double and treble counting, the quadruple and quintuple announcing - plus, no doubt, the new stealth tax increases which Mr Brown somehow forgets to mention in his speech.

    Yet the Budget will go less badly for him than the Scottish elections. Labour will suffer, and it will be impossible for Gordon Brown to disassociate himself from the defeat. Many English voters will conclude that if his fellow Scots do not believe in him, why should they?

    Even so, there is still no matador in sight. But it is worth remembering that the bull never survives the bullfight.
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin's reply View Post
    If we overlook the fact that its Bruce Anderson and therefore automatically suspect.

    Its clear, I think, that Brown as PM will deliver no better a result for labour at the polls than Blair. (I have to say I disagree that Blair is a particularly formidable campaigner, Clinton he ain't) In which case it must be credible that Blair will ask himself, well, why go? Especially as "the legacy" is non existent.

    The only answer I can see is that we REALLY want Blair to go. The fact that we don't want the alternatives does not detract from the fact that we want Blair out. After all, no one was gagging to have John Major as PM in 1990, but we got him, and he went on to win a tricky election against a newly confident labour party.

    Which was of course a huge disaster for the party.

    That said Brown vs Cameron might not even be funny. Cameron is, after all, the Tory Blair (the second Tory Blair, to be accurate. I described Cameron as Blair Mk 2 to a friend of mine who is an old communist, and he remarked bitterly, yes, well its all right for you, at least you EXPECT to have a Tory as the leader of your party.)

    Seriously, my wife says she would never vote for Brown because he is so grumpy. (Women, eh. 50% of the electorate too. ) She thinks Cameron is phoney but still prefers him.

    I'm telling you, I think Posh is back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy's reply View Post
    Its becoming a bit of a hopeless situation for labour, Blair is hugely unpopular, and his own party won't let him stay on too much longer, even if he wanted too,

    Brown is too much associated with Blair, and does'nt really come over all that well to a media-fed electorate, that said, i think he would be an improvement over Blair... It might be that he is not as good as Blair at poll-winning, but the knowledge that Blair is leaving might raise labour's support overall anyway...

    Cameron is very similar to Blair, but its worth waiting until he actually announces some "substance" and policies before making that judgment, it may well be that he is more Tory than he makes out, and is attempting to take the centre ground in an attempt gain votes from the lib-dems and labour, through temporarily moderating his views...

    I honestly think an in=party election for pm would be a disaster for labour, Brown would win, but the party would potentially fall apart.... no other Labour politician has the power, experience, or support to beat him, but could damage the apry image by trying...

    If i was Conservative, i'd be wanting Blair to stay on for as long as possible, because as long as he is around they are loosing popularity...


    Interesting in light of recent events, no?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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