Marian Reforms idea

**Horatius** · 01-14-2010, 03:37

One thing about the original RTW Vanilla which makes me think improve (I haven't figured out the original EB Marian Reforms yet) is the Marian Reforms.

The Roman Republic needed a crisis before the Marian Reforms were possible, what was neccessary were crushing defeats at the hands of the invading Germanic tribes, a Numidian Kingdom and Army operating with a high degree of success by surviving, the levy of the propertied classes being stretched to the limits.

However in the original RTW Marian Reforms happen when you become wealthy, in other words when you become completely unstoppable you get the Marian reforms, you wouldn't think the Republic was stretched to the limits and not in an entirely winning position from the game mechanics.

So I propose instead of the founding of the greatest proffessional army before gunpowder being triggered by you already being unstoppable you get the Marian Reforms if you are losing land, losing battles, and at war with three or more people, and outnumbered on one or two fronts.

That way the Marian Reforms are a challenge, just as they were for Marius and the republic, instead of just being a reward for overwhelming victory.

**A Very Super Market** · 01-14-2010, 05:36

You mean a bit like the AS cataphract reforms? Where a general must lose battles against cataphract-carrying armies?

**Aemilius Paulus** · 01-14-2010, 06:47

Well, I always thought that since after 272 BC eveythign is alternate history in EB anyway, meaning that I suppose the EB team could cut some slack in the realism after that. You make your own fate I guess.

But do not hold your breath for it xP

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 01-14-2010, 07:00

The farming crisis was not the cause of the Marian Reforms neither these their inevitable consequence.

**Horatius** · 01-14-2010, 07:36

Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name

The farming crisis was not the cause of the Marian Reforms neither these their inevitable consequence.

I never said that but I did reference the Tuetones (sp) and Cimbri, and the Numidians, and the way the levy systems weaknesses being exposed.

And yes history is extremely changed by the time Marian reforms come in, but they were brought by crisis, and I personally would like to see my proffessionals doing something other then adding variety to a game that has already ended.

**Cute Wolf** · 01-14-2010, 11:27

I think the polybian reforms must also get as that... as the Romans must face crushing defeat at Kart-Hadast hands first....

EDIT :Oh yeah, and Makedonian Reformed Phalanx must be trigerred with get crushing defeat against Romaioi too...

**Alocin** · 01-14-2010, 12:43

I think that too as an Hystory-lover but, as a player, it would be quite annoying to have to lose battles in order to gain an advantage, right?

**Cute Wolf** · 01-14-2010, 13:04

Yeah, and I bet everyone here will rather type " give_traits "Blablabla blawhatevername" ImpressedByCats 1 " than actually losing a battle....

**Ludens** · 01-14-2010, 14:31

Originally Posted by Horatius

I never said that but I did reference the Tuetones (sp) and Cimbri, and the Numidians, and the way the levy systems weaknesses being exposed.

Except that Marius was already recruiting and equipping proletarians before that (for the Jugurtine war), and he may not have been the first to do so. Property requirements for legion service had been suspended several times before, and it's speculated that Marius represents the last phase in a gradual, unplanned reform, rather than a revolution. The best you could say is that the battle of Arausio marked the end of the militia system, by giving Marius and his new system free reign. But it looks like that would have happened anyway, just more slowly.

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 01-14-2010, 18:13

Exactly.

**ziegenpeter** · 01-14-2010, 18:59

Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Well, I always thought that since after 272 BC eveythign is alternate history in EB anyway, meaning that I suppose the EB team could cut some slack in the realism after that. You make your own fate I guess.

But do not hold your breath for it xP

Well, that is often claimed but face it, thats only semi-true. If it would be true, where are my Numidian Jugunthiz, a type of soldier created by the Great reformer and conquerer of North Africa Athánáric the Markoman...

Its a middle thing, that's why certain reforms are bound to a certain date and so on...

**Ludens** · 01-15-2010, 12:24

Originally Posted by ziegenpeter

Its a middle thing, that's why certain reforms are bound to a certain date and so on...

You are right that EB is limited to the reforms that were attempted historically, but for the record: reforms are bound to a certain date because, in the Classical era, military reforms were often social reforms, and social changes take time.