Question about a Unit attribute

[Vesinger]

Dear Game Designers:

I have a question regarding a Unit Attribute, see below:

stat_sec 11, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.125

What does the last "0.125" mean? I read the descr file that the "spear" means weapon sound type. The next "0" means the min delay between attacks. However that "0.125" was not explained. I found that this number differs between most units.

Thanks a lot!

[Drag0nUL]

That number is the lethality of the weapon. Not sure what that means (I assume it's the probablity that a 'hit' will also kill the enemy) but the bigger it is, the faster will the unit kill enemies.

[mcantu]

its the percent chance that a hit will result in a kill...

[athanaric]

Out of curiosity, can you tell me what unit you are referring to specifically? I'm wondering because all infantry spears in EB have 0.13 lethality, except for pikes (0.15 for Speudogordoz and 0.17 for phalangites).

[B-Wing]

So a successful attack doesn't necessarily mean a kill? I didn't realize that. Though I guess that would explain how/why soldiers are sometimes knocked down or stunned. Well that's interesting. So I guess a unit's attack attribute isn't so important as the product of its attack and lethality?

[athanaric]

Attack is the likelihood of a hit, lethality determines if that hit will be deadly or not.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Out of curiosity, can you tell me what unit you are referring to specifically? I'm wondering because all infantry spears in EB have 0.13 lethality, except for pikes (0.15 for Speudogordoz and 0.17 for phalangites).

I believe all overhand spears have lethality of 0.13 while underhand spears are 0.125

[athanaric]

I believe all overhand spears have lethality of 0.13 while underhand spears are 0.125

Nope, all have 0.13. Except for the Gaesamica and Iabarannta apparently, they have 0.124 and 0.125 respectively. Looks like his unit was one of these two.

[Vesinger]

Thanks for the answer. The sample was just randomly pick and I forgot what that was.

I was actually interested in the "Pahlava and Baktria Cataphract Duel". I found that the Attack Point for Pahlavan Elite Cataphract and Baktria Hetairoi Cataphract are the same. However, Pahlavan Cataphract does not have "ap" attribute but the lethality was 0.225, while Baktrian Cataphract have "ap" but lethality was only 0.1. That was a pretty big difference, which led me wonder the contribution of this "lethality" value in actual combat. This value was very uniform for infantry, but they frequently differ by several fold for cavalries.

[Metaluis90]

Thanks for the answer. The sample was just randomly pick and I forgot what that was.

I was actually interested in the "Pahlava and Baktria Cataphract Duel". I found that the Attack Point for Pahlavan Elite Cataphract and Baktria Hetairoi Cataphract are the same. However, Pahlavan Cataphract does not have "ap" attribute but the lethality was 0.225, while Baktrian Cataphract have "ap" but lethality was only 0.1. That was a pretty big difference, which led me wonder the contribution of this "lethality" value in actual combat. This value was very uniform for infantry, but they frequently differ by several fold for cavalries.

AP, what does that means?

[Cute Wolf]

AP = armour piercing attack..... it will count enemy armour defense only in half (so are much moe effective at killing armoured foes)

[Grade_A_Beef]

Apparently however the larger lethality of the longsword is more deadly than the AP Kopis.

I forgot where I saw it, but there was a forum thread that compared the highest armored bodyguard units with one another. Although the Pahlava bodyguards lose consistently to Saka Rauka and Armenian bodyguards (both of which have AP and .165) they dominate the Baktrians, who have more points in armor but have a measly .11 lethality (with AP). The Baktrians in turn have an advantage against the Saka and Armenians O_o

Not that it matters however, seeing as their primary weapon, the lance (and the only weapon the computer uses) is the best against armored horsemen.

[vartan]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Apparently however the larger lethality of the longsword is more deadly than the AP Kopis.

I forgot where I saw it, but there was a forum thread that compared the highest armored bodyguard units with one another. Although the Pahlava bodyguards lose consistently to Saka Rauka and Armenian bodyguards (both of which have AP and .165) they dominate the Baktrians, who have more points in armor but have a measly .11 lethality (with AP). The Baktrians in turn have an advantage against the Saka and Armenians O_o

Not that it matters however, seeing as their primary weapon, the lance (and the only weapon the computer uses) is the best against armored horsemen.

Even though the lance animation is slower than the secondaries, are you saying that the lance is the best option for cav against cav no matter if you are saka bak or pahlav?

[bobbin]

It's odd but its true, lances have higher lethaility (0.4 usually) and AP also they can hit from a distance, all this makes them usually much more effective in meele that the secondary.

[mcantu]

It's odd but its true, lances have higher lethaility (0.4 usually) and AP also they can hit from a distance, all this makes them usually much more effective in meele that the secondary.

not when you take into account the very low attack score (after the charge bonus has run out). the lethality score only comes into play after a successful hit is made

[Grade_A_Beef]

No, I'm sure that it was taken into account. Despite the low attack it is still much much better than any of the secondaries that heavy cav has. The .38 and or higher lethality is just that big of a number.

That's why against enemy AI cataphract cav your best bet would be to use Dahae skirmisher cavalry or light axemen for their high defense skill....still gotta watch out for the charge though.

[vartan]

No, I'm sure that it was taken into account. Despite the low attack it is still much much better than any of the secondaries that heavy cav has. The .38 and or higher lethality is just that big of a number.

That's why against enemy AI cataphract cav your best bet would be to use Dahae skirmisher cavalry or light axemen for their high defense skill....still gotta watch out for the charge though.

Best screen for enemy cav charge is pikes in your face. Also, your own heavy cav should be able to take the charge. In any case you'll lose men to heavy cav in charge, don't doubt it. The only setback with using the lance in melee after charge is it only attacks once every blue moon, that's how slow the animation is. I personally alt-right-click charge when playing multiplayer (and make it such a habit that I even do it in single player), as a form of consistency and historical appreciation, etc. (y'all know what I mean ). I feel good today

[Grade_A_Beef]

Don't get me wrong, I switch my cavalry to secondaries as well. I'm just saying that the high lethality lances are the best against horses or TABs at the cataphract level of armor.

I tend to avoid sending my heavy cav to fight AI opponent heavy cav (though I have no qualms about it in MP, if I can ever figure out how to use hamachi) because heavy cav tend to have high armounts of armor. With armor halved (by AI default lances) they can be comparable to some medium cavalry like Tarabostes. IMO I'd prefer to preserve my heavy cavalry for use against stationary general units or heavy infantry/pikes and let axemen and Dahae deal with cataphract cavalry. High skill dampens the deadly effect of AP, and on top of all they're much much cheaper than heavy cav or other cataphract cav.

I don't have any fast units able to take their charge however, but a slight skirmish from the charge usually changes "charging" to "pursuing" and makes them much easier to deal with a split second later....

That and I don't trust any pikemen without axes to deal with cataphract cavalry. None at all. Pantodapoi Phalangitai and Machimoi are probably the only pikemen I use when facing off against that sort of cavalry. I learned my lesson the hard way when the Baktrian BG caused huge casualties to my Agryspides but got slaughtered mainly by my Pantodapoi Phalangitai right next to the Agryspides. Both took significant casualties but one was cheaper and much easier to replace....

[vartan]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Don't get me wrong, I switch my cavalry to secondaries as well. I'm just saying that the high lethality lances are the best against horses or TABs at the cataphract level of armor.

I tend to avoid sending my heavy cav to fight AI opponent heavy cav (though I have no qualms about it in MP, if I can ever figure out how to use hamachi) because heavy cav tend to have high armounts of armor. With armor halved (by AI default lances) they can be comparable to some medium cavalry like Tarabostes. IMO I'd prefer to preserve my heavy cavalry for use against stationary general units or heavy infantry/pikes and let axemen and Dahae deal with cataphract cavalry. High skill dampens the deadly effect of AP, and on top of all they're much much cheaper than heavy cav or other cataphract cav.

I don't have any fast units able to take their charge however, but a slight skirmish from the charge usually changes "charging" to "pursuing" and makes them much easier to deal with a split second later....

That and I don't trust any pikemen without axes to deal with cataphract cavalry. None at all. Pantodapoi Phalangitai and Machimoi are probably the only pikemen I use when facing off against that sort of cavalry. I learned my lesson the hard way when the Baktrian BG caused huge casualties to my Agryspides but got slaughtered mainly by my Pantodapoi Phalangitai right next to the Agryspides. Both took significant casualties but one was cheaper and much easier to replace....

What's this TAB abbreviation I keep hearing? and Hamachi is simple enough, but limiting and restraining. Tunngle is not working at the moment, it's not on our side. Refer to my post here to learn more about Wippien. I used to think it was a Hamachi clone but I did my homework. We need people to get themselves signed into that and add each other (we'll be forming a list of people with Wippien accounts) {off-topic, but just replying to your Hamachi note}.

[WinsingtonIII]

What's this TAB abbreviation I keep hearing?

TAB is just short hand for the Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Hellenic Elite Spearmen) of the Arche Seleukia, you know (I'm sure you already do), the extraordinarily heavily armored elite spearmen draped in chain mail. I believe Grade A Beef was merely referencing them as an example of an extremely heavily armored unit against which high lethality lances are the most effective cavalry weapon as opposed to secondaries.

[Grade_A_Beef]

Yeah, just units that rely overmuch on armor, although that of course is not a bad thing.

In any case I managed to find the thread. I'd love to do testing myself, but yeah....I need to understand how Hamachi works, as I'm not really proficient with computers.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...aphract&page=3

[vartan]

TAB is just short hand for the Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Hellenic Elite Spearmen) of the Arche Seleukia, you know (I'm sure you already do), the extraordinarily heavily armored elite spearmen draped in chain mail. I believe Grade A Beef was merely referencing them as an example of an extremely heavily armored unit against which high lethality lances are the most effective cavalry weapon as opposed to secondaries.

I can imagine how the lethality would come in handy (even if it's half attack, it's more than double lethality, but a bit slower, all in all perhaps a BIT better). TABs are a *****.

Yeah, just units that rely overmuch on armor, although that of course is not a bad thing.

In any case I managed to find the thread. I'd love to do testing myself, but yeah....I need to understand how Hamachi works, as I'm not really proficient with computers.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...aphract&page=3

Don't limit yourself. Do your homework, and help us out.

[ziegenpeter]

I still can't believe it! I always thought mace, axe and kopis were best against tanks. So you actually should only switch to it when when fighting lighter foes?

[vartan]

I still can't believe it! I always thought mace, axe and kopis were best against tanks. So you actually should only switch to it when when fighting lighter foes?

No, switch to it when fighting humans online as a form of consistency, historicity, etiquette, courtesy, respect, and because RTW doesn't automatically switch to secondaries (I've heard M2TW automatically switches to secondaries, so EBII should solve this issue for those who still want to bend the unwritten law.)

[HunGeneral]

I've heard M2TW automatically switches to secondaries, so EBII should solve this issue for those who still want to bend the unwritten law.

I can't confirm it for sure, but I think it is so - atleast in my experience on MedII the cavalry always switch to there secondary arms in battle (even Knights and other heavy cavalry - even if there charge isn't succesful they unshed there swords if locked up in meele.)

[vartan]

I can't confirm it for sure, but I think it is so - atleast in my experience on MedII the cavalry always switch to there secondary arms in battle (even Knights and other heavy cavalry - even if there charge isn't succesful they unshed there swords if locked up in meele.)

That's good, and I hope they die easier when trying to retreat for another charge...RTW is ridiculous sometimes.

[HunGeneral]

That's good, and I hope they die easier when trying to retreat for another charge...RTW is ridiculous sometimes.

I think in MedII they don't even try to retreat for another charge - or atleats in my campaings they never got that far. Howevevr if you do oder cavalry to fall back from a cavalry meele or
try to pull them out from the middle of an infanry formation then they WILL suffer loses (and the AI sometimes follows them and tries not to leave time for the horsemen to regroup).

[ziegenpeter]

No, switch to it when fighting humans online as a form of consistency, historicity, etiquette, courtesy, respect, and because RTW doesn't automatically switch to secondaries (I've heard M2TW automatically switches to secondaries, so EBII should solve this issue for those who still want to bend the unwritten law.)

Well but in campaign, if I'd seek for efficiency...?

[vartan]

Well but in campaign, if I'd seek for efficiency...?

In campaign stick to the lance for cryin' out loud man. Give the AI a good beating it deserves.