Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

[Nyz]

I have some questions:

a) What is / are the different (s) between spear and pike? I am confuse.... In Malay text there were mention about tombak and lembing, I am not sure which one is spear, which one is pike.... I know about javelin... in Malay text it was called Seligi. (Seligi is a classic word, the modern for javelin is Tempuling).

b) What is "2 handed"? Is it mean one weapon held by both hands? or 2 weapons held by each hand?

c) Were Malay and Acheh people names have been post elsewhere?

[jirisys]

I have some questions:

a) What is / are the different (s) between spear and pike? I am confuse.... In Malay text there were mention about tombak and lembing, I am not sure which one is spear, which one is pike.... I know about javelin... in Malay text it was called Seligi. (Seligi is a classic word, the modern for javelin is Tempuling).

b) What is "2 handed"? Is it mean one weapon held by both hands? or 2 weapons held by each hand?

c) Were Malay and Acheh people names have been post elsewhere?

a) a pike is a an extremely long weapon, varying considerably in size, from 3 to 6 metres (10 to over 20 feet) long. It had a wooden shaft with an iron or steel spearhead affixed.

a spear a pole weapon consisting of a shaft, usually of wood, with a sharpened head. The head may be simply the sharpened end of the shaft itself, as is the case with bamboo spears, or it may be of another material fastened to the shaft, such as obsidian, iron or bronze. The most common design is of a metal spearhead, shaped like a triangle or a leaf. A spear's lenght is usually from 3 up to 8 feet (if used overarm) and to 16 feet (if used underarm)

b) Two handed means it's a weapon you need to use with both hands, a double wielding soldier is a troop with a weapon in each hand

c) i don't know

~Jirisys (they're two handed phalanxes... WHAT! THEY HAVE A SPEAR IN EACH HAND!!!)

[plutoboyz]

I have some questions:

a) What is / are the different (s) between spear and pike? I am confuse.... In Malay text there were mention about tombak and lembing, I am not sure which one is spear, which one is pike.... I know about javelin... in Malay text it was called Seligi. (Seligi is a classic word, the modern for javelin is Tempuling).

b) What is "2 handed"? Is it mean one weapon held by both hands? or 2 weapons held by each hand?

c) Were Malay and Acheh people names have been post elsewhere?

a. pike is a long spear. tombak is standard spear. lembing is javelin. you know lempar lembing or rejam lembing?
b. 2 handed mean held by two hand (longsword or greatsword). dual wield mean you have two weapon held by each hand
c. I don't know. just post your sugestion here or in our forum.

[Nyz]

Thanks...

That's make a clear explanation and helping me matching the unit name with the one stated in Malay text....

In Hikayat Hang Tuah the one that throwed is seligi

"Maka kata Hang Jebat sambil menangkiskan seligi (javelin) dan anak damak (dart) seperti hujan datangnya....

It is just Kamus Dewan make me confuse, It said that in lembing is same as seligi (smaller and shorter than tombak, the one that thrown), but in some entries it said lembing is same as tombak....

From my understanding, lembing is the one that thrown.

Hmmm. what about lance?



Kepada Jirisys: Hampeh mangkuk ayun ni kata kat aku.......

[Cute Wolf]

note : I just put in your input for the unit name, and made several changes to Melayu culture Infantry and cav units so please do some checking there

Melayu Watchmen (spears) = Orang Berkawal
Melayu City Guards (archer-shortswords) = Pengawal Kota
Acehnese Swordsmen (swords) = Laskar Aceh
Melayu-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-spears) = Penjurit
Melayu Shock Trooper (double swords) = Tentera Penggempur
Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed spears) = Tentara Laot (?)
Melayu-Sriwj Pikemen (pike-shortswords) = Pertikaman
Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Penjurit Tombak-Kapak (?)
Acehnese Heavy Infantry (shortswords) = Serdadu Pedeung
Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Serdadu Pemanah
Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-axes) = Hulubalang Laot (?)
Half-Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)
Malakan Royal Swordsmen (longswords) = Bentera Istana (?)
Acehnese Honorary Guards (javelin-axes) = Sahabat Istana

Melayu Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces)
Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords)
Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces)
Melayu-Sriwj Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin)
Melayu Royal War Elephants (elephant archers)
Melayu Iron-Clad War Elephants (elephant-javelin)


Note that some of them are shared units with South Sumateran Culture... I allready do the rebalancing by doing the equation again...

[Nyz]

Melayu Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces)

Well, in Hikayat Hang Tuah, Letter of Sultan Iskandar Thani to Prince Frederik Hendrik of Orange, Hikayat Amir Hamzah it was called Kuda Perang, while in Hikayat Acheh, Bustan as-Salatin and Hikayat Muhamad Hanafiah, it was called Kuda Peperangan.

[Cute Wolf]

well, so Melaka or Aceh really didn't have mounted archer, put aside some turkish soldiers briefly employed in Aceh?

[Nyz]

well, so Melaka or Aceh really didn't have mounted archer

Hmm mounted archer... well in Hikayat Hang Tuah it stated that the horse users were using pedang or lembing.

, put aside some turkish soldiers briefly employed in Aceh?

May I know why you come with this conclusion? For Turkish soldier, I am not sure, but in Hikayat Acheh it stated that the usage of Lasykar Ghori (form Ghorid, Afghanistan).

In Hikayat Hang Tuah, it was stated that Melaka was buying Meriam and Bedil (cannon and cannon-ball) from Turki. But Turki name was not mention as Turki, It was mentioned as Rum (maybe from Saljuqian-e-Rum, the [Turkish Sultanate], but definitely not Rome [SPQR], and not Byzantine Rome ). Hikayat Acheh also mention Rum, not Turki.

Hikayat Patani also mentioned Rum, and stated that a Rum Man named Abdul Samad assisted Patani in making cannon-ball.

Do you think when the word Turki come to history?

Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)

In Sejarah Melayu, it was stated the phrase Sidi Arab, (Sidi from the word Sayyidi [my lord]), an Arabian that really good in archery, but not mention that he was using Scimitar...

Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces)

For Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces), do you have the translation in Bahasa Acheh?

In letter of Sultan Iskandar Muda to King James I, letter of Sultan Iskandar Thani to Prince Frederik Hendrik of Orange and Letter of Sultanah Tajul Alam to King Charles II (all Acheh's Sultans) it was stated the special ornamented horses (kuda berpakaian mas bepermata belazuardi, berkaus mas dan suasa) but not named it.

In Syair Almarhum Sultan Abu Bakar: Koeda Beginda
In Hikayat Maharaja Mikrama: Kuda Genderaan
In Hikayat Acheh, Adat Raja Melayu and Sejarah Melayu: Kuda Kenaikan

Hmm, What do you think?

It was also stated Kuda Semberani and Kuda Tizi / Tezi, but that's not quite right, that were the names for type of breed of the horse...

[plutoboyz]

It is just Kamus Dewan make me confuse, It said that in lembing is same as seligi (smaller and shorter than tombak, the one that thrown), but in some entries it said lembing is same as tombak....

you know, sometimes in reality. soldier throw their spears. just to kill enemy instantly.

[Nyz]

Thanks Mr. Cute Wolf. Here my suggestion:

a) Melayu-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-spears) = Penjurit
is the usage of the word penjurit here parallel with the units that used word prajurit in Jawa and Pajajaran? If it’s parallel, than ok, we have some connection here…

b) Melayu Shock Trooper (double swords) = Tentera Penggempur
Melayu shock trooper used double sword, how about change it to Pendekar?

c) Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed spears) = Tentara Laot (?)
Hulubalang

d) Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Penjurit Tombak-Kapak (?)
Well, Pengawitan is the name for Melakan infantry equipped with special spear stated in hikayat Hang Tuah. (tombak pengawitan bersampak emas)...

e) Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)
You said that in Babad Tanah Jawi, it was called Bala Kauman?

f) Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Serdadu Pemanah
The word serdadu have connotation with Portuguese and scimitars were the influence from middle-east....maybe just used Pemanah or Laskar Pemanah, because the usage of scimitars here.

g) Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-axes) = Hulubalang Laot (?)
I am not sure, in Hikayat Hang Tuah, there were stated the word perapit, and in other chapter, penjajap

h) Malakan Royal Swordsmen (longswords) = Bentera Istana (?)
Bentara

i) Aiyyah…..so many elephant….Anyway, for the elephant, I think only Melakan Sultan and faction heir and sometimes others royal family members (not all) used elephant, that was: Melayu Royal War Elephants and it was called Gajah Kenaikan.

Some of the royal members used horse, while the others used Palanquin.ie Paduka Tuan (Melakan Bendahara during reign of Sultan Mahmud Syah) fight Portuguese on the Palanquin, also Sultan Mahmad Syah II (last Johore Sultan from Melakan Sultan lineage) also has been kill on Palanquin. I don't think the commoners used elephant.

j) Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords) - Pegawai dan Pertuanan. I think this unit can be made as recruitable general unit

k) For Acheh, the nobles were called Ulèë Balang. Which unit suited them? Acheh Royal Horsemen or Acehnese Honorary Guards?

[Cute Wolf]

Thanks Mr. Cute Wolf. Here my suggestion:

a) Melayu-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-spears) = Penjurit
is the usage of the word penjurit here parallel with the units that used word prajurit in Jawa and Pajajaran? If it’s parallel, than ok, we have some connection here…

true, so they are verivied

b) Melayu Shock Trooper (double swords) = Tentera Penggempur
Melayu shock trooper used double sword, how about change it to Pendekar?

Pendekar, or more rightly "Pandekar" is allready taken by Javanese commoner knights... I remember to read about them, prisoners, former pirates and convicts, that volunteered to fight in the shock troops as a pardon (pangampunan) to their past crimes, mentioned in acehnese articles, but they also mention that Malaysian sultanates also have this kind of pardon system... so I guess they are common shock troops employed that time... (two handed sword is probably only our (sonic and me) interpretation, since it was hard to think you are only given one sword and must go charge the enemy line without a shield or any kind of protection (they said about only wearing simple clothes), and another sentences mentioned that their hands are full of blood (indirectly means that they use both hands to swing different swords - as in Acehnese soldiery, great two handed sword (peusangan) are reserved only for military cadets, and not criminals).

c) Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed spears) = Tentara Laot (?)
Hulubalang

d) Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Penjurit Tombak-Kapak (?)
Well, Pengawitan is the name for Melakan infantry equipped with special spear stated in hikayat Hang Tuah. (tombak pengawitan bersampak emas)...

And in this matter, I must say that I'll stick with tentara anyway, because that was how the Sumateran sea warriors are described. And with Halberdiers, maybe I'll use Pangawitan, as you suggested...

e) Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)
You said that in Babad Tanah Jawi, it was called Bala Kauman?

The Bala Kauman... was the Half arab swordsmen, they are quite different unit since they are only wearing a swords, the "Ottoman Elite Infantry" are Aceh and Melayu's immitation for Ottoman Janissary... and I think that should be that way.... and because "Kauman means another thing" I'll use Arab instead...

f) Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Serdadu Pemanah
The word serdadu have connotation with Portuguese and scimitars were the influence from middle-east....maybe just used Pemanah or Laskar Pemanah, because the usage of scimitars here.

Thanks... verivied

g) Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-axes) = Hulubalang Laot (?)
I am not sure, in Hikayat Hang Tuah, there were stated the word perapit, and in other chapter, penjajap

So we'll stick to the Hulubalang then...

h) Malakan Royal Swordsmen (longswords) = Bentera Istana (?)
Bentara

i) Aiyyah…..so many elephant….Anyway, for the elephant, I think only Melakan Sultan and faction heir and sometimes others royal family members (not all) used elephant, that was: Melayu Royal War Elephants and it was called Gajah Kenaikan.

Verivied

Some of the royal members used horse, while the others used Palanquin.ie Paduka Tuan (Melakan Bendahara during reign of Sultan Mahmud Syah) fight Portuguese on the Palanquin, also Sultan Mahmad Syah II (last Johore Sultan from Melakan Sultan lineage) also has been kill on Palanquin. I don't think the commoners used elephant.

j) Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords) - Pegawai dan Pertuanan. I think this unit can be made as recruitable general unit

k) For Acheh, the nobles were called Ulèë Balang. Which unit suited them? Acheh Royal Horsemen or Acehnese Honorary Guards?

Too bad, the engines can't help in multiple bodyguard units... Maybe for that reason, I'll made recruitable bodyguards on cavalry available... but the default BG unit will be the Elephants....
The noble cavalry will have their BG version maybe....

and acehnese Honorary guards will go as "Sahabat Istana" , because Ulee Balang represent broader nobility, and those "Sahabat Istana" are actually palace guardsmen....

Oh yeah, I forgot to include those unit:
- Peusangan Askar / Acehnese Cadet Shock Troopers (wielding large two handed sword)

[plutoboyz]

ok, prepare for mind boggling post! Hopefully this is final. because I don't found anything to add anymore


Local name(English name)[weapon]

wang tani (Civilian) [golok]

Wado (Sundanese watchmen) [golok]
Pajurit Tumbak (Sundanese Spearmen) [underarm spear]
Pajurit Pamanah (Sundanese Archer) [bamboo bow]
Pajurit Golok (Sundanese Shocktrooper) [golok]
Pajurit Pĕdang (Sundanese Swordsman)[Sword]

Jawara (Sundanese Heavy shocktrooper) [golok]
Bayangkara (Sundanese Elite Watchmen) [underarm spear+javelin]
Pamanah (Sundanese Elite Archer) [bamboo war bow+golok]
Pamarang (Sundanese Elite Swordsmen) [sword]
*Pajurit Angklung (Sundanese Music Corps)[WAR MUSIC!] *don't laugh,its historical!*

Balamati Pamanah (Sundanese Royal Archer) [bamboo war bow+golok]
Balamati Pamarang (Sundanese Royal Swordsman) [swords]
Balamati Kujang Jago (Sundanese Royal Bladesman) [kujang jago]
Balamati Tumpak Kuda (Sundanese Royal Cavalry) [javelin+spear]
Kasatrya Pamanah Puragabaya (Sundanese Warrior-Priest Archer)[Bamboo war bow+dual wield golok]
Kasatrya Pamarang Puragabaya (Sundanese Warrior-Priest Swordsman)[dual wield sword]
Kasatrya Kuda Puragabaya (Sundanese Warrior-Priest Cavalry)[kujang pangarak+ dual wield sword]

Pamuk (Sundanese Hero)[longsword+bamboo warbow]
Kareta Kuda (Sundanese Chariot)[one man with bamboo warbow, one man with spear, one driver]
#Pajurit Gajah Siliwangi (Sundanese Elephant Bodyguard) [spear+javelin]

regional:
Bandrang Keraton(Cirebonan Spearmen)[two handed spear]
Pamanah Gerak Cepat Surosowan(Surosuwan elite Archer)[bamboo warbow]
Pasukan Gerak Cepat Surosowan(Surosowan elite spearmen)[twohanded spear]
Pamarang Gerak Cepat Surosowan(Surosowan Elite Swordsman)[poisoned golok]
Jawara Ciomas (Ciomas Fighter)[poisoned golok]
Pajurit Kuda Windu (Windu Cavalry) [spear+javelin]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Bonus: Baladia Onom Galuh(Betrayer Army) [anything] *its like Dead man of Dunnharrow*

PS:I know that Gerak Cepat sound silly(myself always laugh when hear it) but its historical. some say it is the special forces that open Pajajaran mighty gate.
PS:Banten golok was more lethal than Priangan Golok and Pesisir Golok, because it use poison during making process.
PS:# Bodyguard unit
PS(again): who's Ikazz?
PS(I think to many PS here): Pajajaran unit at forumotion haven't updated.

[Nyz]

Pendekar, or more rightly "Pandekar" is allready taken by Javanese commoner knights... I remember to read about them, prisoners, former pirates and convicts, that volunteered to fight in the shock troops as a pardon (pangampunan) to their past crimes, mentioned in acehnese articles, but they also mention that Malaysian sultanates also have this kind of pardon system... so I guess they are common shock troops employed that time... (two handed sword is probably only our (sonic and me) interpretation, since it was hard to think you are only given one sword and must go charge the enemy line without a shield or any kind of protection (they said about only wearing simple clothes), and another sentences mentioned that their hands are full of blood (indirectly means that they use both hands to swing different swords - as in Acehnese soldiery, great two handed sword (peusangan) are reserved only for military cadets, and not criminals).

Oh I see. In Hikayat Hang Tuah, there were mention the word Hamba Tebusan, Hamba Sahaya, Hamba Raja and Budak Raja to describe the slave.

Melayu-Sriwj Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin)
Melayu Royal War Elephants (elephant archers)
Melayu Iron-Clad War Elephants (elephant-javelin)

I have found that in the letter of Acheh's Sultan Iskandar Muda to England's King James I stated that His Majesty has very ornamented elephants and hundreds of war elephant (gajah perang):

ialah raja yang karunia Allah Ta‘ala mengempukan gajah berpakaian mas bepermata belazuardi dan beratus-ratus gajah daripada gajah perang yang berbeluhan besi dan behalap gading besi malila dan berkaus besi dan tembaga;

he is the king granted by God the possession of elephants caparisoned in gold studded with jewels and lapis-lazuli, and hundreds of elephants for use in war with steel-framed howdahs, their tusks sheathed and tipped in steel and their feet shod in steel and copper;

[jirisys]

Thanks...

That's make a clear explanation and helping me matching the unit name with the one stated in Malay text....

In Hikayat Hang Tuah the one that throwed is seligi

"Maka kata Hang Jebat sambil menangkiskan seligi (javelin) dan anak damak (dart) seperti hujan datangnya....

It is just Kamus Dewan make me confuse, It said that in lembing is same as seligi (smaller and shorter than tombak, the one that thrown), but in some entries it said lembing is same as tombak....

From my understanding, lembing is the one that thrown.

Hmmm. what about lance?



Kepada Jirisys: Hampeh mangkuk ayun ni kata kat aku.......

Speak in english!!!!!! no indonesian!

~Jirisys (mshla hambaraa nunvbas lfies plsea csokles)

[Cute Wolf]

Correction, that was malayan.... well, Indonesian and Malayan language are quite similar, but with such critical difference that will made misunderstanding quite easy to occur...

BTW, how's my request of uncarpeted Asian elephant skin? did you have put that? we should look at the model (apply that to the vanilla models)... so we can give about the details of their anatomy..

@All : Please speak in english, except when quoting textual evidence... we can go in the Mod discussion thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tara-Total-War if we sorely need to talk something in Indo Malayan language.... (so no one will bang their head because of our mumblings)

[jirisys]

Correction, that was malayan.... well, Indonesian and Malayan language are quite similar, but with such critical difference that will made misunderstanding quite easy to occur...

BTW, how's my request of uncarpeted Asian elephant skin? did you have put that? we should look at the model (apply that to the vanilla models)... so we can give about the details of their anatomy..

@All : Please speak in english, except when quoting textual evidence... we can go in the Mod discussion thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tara-Total-War if we sorely need to talk something in Indo Malayan language.... (so no one will bang their head because of our mumblings)

Well i have uncarpeted it but i can't find it now... it seems i forgot to organize the folders and i can't remember the name... so it's all a mess... plus i had a long homework this weekend and a sports event on saturday... so i have been very busy (with the dancing practice for the event and all that stuff)

Anyway... i thank you nagged them, but... that... didn't quite... made me... understand what he said

~Jirisys (daancing... yeah!)

[Nyz]

Here a list of Malay's names:

Male Names:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Abdul Jalil
Abdul Karim
Abdul Majid
Abdul Malik
Abdul Rahman
Abdullah
Abu Bakar
Ahmad
Ahmad Tajuddin
Alauddin Mughayat (I found that only Sultan of used this name, not others royal and noble)
Alauddin Riayat (I found that only Sultan of used this name, not others royal and noble)
Ali
Biajid
Habib
Hassan
Ibrahim
Isap
Ishak
Iskandar
Jaafar
Jenal
Kadim
Kassim
Khoja Hassan
Koris
Mahmud
Mansur
Muhammad
Mustafa
Muzaffar
Nadim
Salahuddin
Tajul Ariffin
Yusuf
Zainal Abidin
Ismail
Abdul Aziz
Badrul Alam
Abdul Halim
Sulaiman

Female Names:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Dang Baru
Dang Kamala
Dang Merdu
Dang Anum
Dang Sandang
Dang Merduwati
Dang Raya Rani,
Dang Bibah
Dang Bunga
Tun Senja
Tun Puteh
Tun Wati
Tun Kudu
Jamilah
Aminah

Inherited Malay Titles (or surname)

Usually Malay don’t have surname. Their name are base on (given name) Bin (or Binti for female) (name of his / her father). eg: Ali Bin Abu / Fatimah Binti Said : Ali and Fatimah are given names, while Abu and Said are their fathers.

However, Malay has inherited titles (like Pangeran in Brunei and Indonesia) which are inherited through one’s descendant.

Royal title:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Raja (Melaka royal family used this title)
Tengku
Tunku
Engku
Ungku

Noble title:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Tun
Wan
Megat
Che
Syed (title of the descendant from Arab noble families)
Sheikh (title of the descendant from Arab noble family / Muslim scholars)

So, one’s name can be like this: Raja Ali / Tun Zainal Abidin / Tunku Ismail / Wan Ahmad (titles come first, followed by one’s name) and the titles are inherited by the descendant (like surname)

Hmm, can RTW engine implement this? (Surnames come first, followed by names)




Office titles

Office titles were awarded after few years in office and they are non-hereditary. Usually, after a noble get a title, he was called by the title name to address him (like someone who changes his name).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Syah (only king and faction heir used this title, other member of royal family not used it)
Sarwa Raja
Paduka Raja
Seri Buana
Seri Maharaja Lela
Seri Utama
Tun Bija Sura
Seri Maharaja
Seri Sarwa Diraja
Bija Sura
Sang Nila Utama
Seri Nara Diraja
Seri Wak Raja
Ratna Diraja
Pekerma Jaya
Perpatih Muka Berjajar
Perpatih Tulus
Paduka Tuan
Seri Amar Diraja
Narawangsa
Perpatih Putih
Perpatih Sedang
Siwa Raja

I Think in RTW engine, name cannot be changed. But it can be added using epithet. In EB, I have found that they are using epithet in export_VnVs.text files for Hayasdan, Pahlava and SPQR.

So, for example, it will become like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First case:

A newly recruited general name is Tun Ali. Then, after have been awarded a title (eg Seri Maharaja Lela title), his name change to: Tun Ali Seri Maharaja Lela.


Second case:

At first, when a royal family members coming of age, his name is eg: Raja Ahmad
Then, after have been awarded a title, his name change to: Raja Ahmad Seri Maharaja Lela.

Then, after becoming faction leader, can his name be changed to Sultan Ahmad Syah?