Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

[Cute Wolf]

so, I think (because of limitation, and yeah, not only aceh, but some other sultanates have sultan of sultan titles, such as Sultan of Belitong are vassal of the Sultan of Palembang) we should made this generalization this much....

Faction leader got:
- if he was a muslim : Sultan (and taken as ephitet)
- If he was not a muslim : Maharaja (and taken as ephitet)

Governmental offices:
- if he was a muslim, and rule the historical Sultanate seat : Sultan Bla-bla-bla (offices only, not ephitet)
- if he was a muslim, but not rule the historical Sultanate seat : Raja Bla-bla-bla
- if he wasn't a muslim : Raja Bla-bla-bla...

[plutoboyz]

How about the Hindu one?

[Cute Wolf]

got Raja-Maharaja.... because all the Christian (puppet) rulers are taken hindu-derived titles and offices too...

[Nyz]

Melayu Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces)

Well, in Hikayat Hang Tuah, Letter of Sultan Iskandar Thani to Prince Frederik Hendrik of Orange, Hikayat Amir Hamzah it was called Kuda Perang, while in Hikayat Acheh, Bustan as-Salatin and Hikayat Muhamad Hanafiah, it was called Kuda Peperangan.

[Cute Wolf]

well, so Melaka or Aceh really didn't have mounted archer, put aside some turkish soldiers briefly employed in Aceh?

[Nyz]

well, so Melaka or Aceh really didn't have mounted archer

Hmm mounted archer... well in Hikayat Hang Tuah it stated that the horse users were using pedang or lembing.

, put aside some turkish soldiers briefly employed in Aceh?

May I know why you come with this conclusion? For Turkish soldier, I am not sure, but in Hikayat Acheh it stated that the usage of Lasykar Ghori (form Ghorid, Afghanistan).

In Hikayat Hang Tuah, it was stated that Melaka was buying Meriam and Bedil (cannon and cannon-ball) from Turki. But Turki name was not mention as Turki, It was mentioned as Rum (maybe from Saljuqian-e-Rum, the [Turkish Sultanate], but definitely not Rome [SPQR], and not Byzantine Rome ). Hikayat Acheh also mention Rum, not Turki.

Hikayat Patani also mentioned Rum, and stated that a Rum Man named Abdul Samad assisted Patani in making cannon-ball.

Do you think when the word Turki come to history?

Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Pahlawan Syamisir (?)

In Sejarah Melayu, it was stated the phrase Sidi Arab, (Sidi from the word Sayyidi [my lord]), an Arabian that really good in archery, but not mention that he was using Scimitar...

Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces)

For Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces), do you have the translation in Bahasa Acheh?

In letter of Sultan Iskandar Muda to King James I, letter of Sultan Iskandar Thani to Prince Frederik Hendrik of Orange and Letter of Sultanah Tajul Alam to King Charles II (all Acheh's Sultans) it was stated the special ornamented horses (kuda berpakaian mas bepermata belazuardi, berkaus mas dan suasa) but not named it.

In Syair Almarhum Sultan Abu Bakar: Koeda Beginda
In Hikayat Maharaja Mikrama: Kuda Genderaan
In Hikayat Acheh, Adat Raja Melayu and Sejarah Melayu: Kuda Kenaikan

Hmm, What do you think?

It was also stated Kuda Semberani and Kuda Tizi / Tezi, but that's not quite right, that were the names for type of breed of the horse...

[Rahwana]

of course we know that sultan of Rum, means turks, because if we go letter for letter, Jirisys might be confused

and it was more logic involved, I see CW not yet giving the gunpowder units, but here's the gunpowder units for Melayu:
- Gun Skirmishers (cheap gun infantry - remember that guns are actually easier to use than bows, they will be short ranged like skirmishers, and not too accurate, but cheap and widely available)
- Gun troopers the Regular Gunners
- Turkish gun troopers (regular gunners - on par with european gunners)
- Elite musketters (elite unit)

and if you ask about the turkish elite archer-swordsmen, you must remember that the Ottoman themself are gun producers, but they still use more traditional cavalry and infantry arm, especially Yeniceri units, to do most of their battle jobs. It was just a logic that most of the turkish soldiers "imported" will be gunners and gun crews, but Turkish (Rum) cavalry did mentioned, and they are most likely HA Spahis.

The turkish themself didn't use guns exstensively before the reform that introduce the Nizam army, much later...

[Nyz]

In Sejarah Melayu, the gun user was called Pegawai Istinggar. Used by Sultanate of Johor after the fall of Melaka to face Portuguese. But I am not sure wheather they were skirmisher, regular or elite, but the word Pegawai have connotation with middle class soldier.

BTW, the Turkish soldier in Acheh were called by Tuskish names or Acheh names?

of course we know that sultan of Rum, means turks, because if we go letter for letter, Jirisys might be confused

~Jirisys (You are not confused, do you?)

[Rahwana]

calling them "tentera rum" will cause confusion...

[Nyz]

calling them "tentera rum" will cause confusion...

. Tentera Rum make me think about Sassanid and Rome era of conflict.

[Rahwana]

yeah, I said to CW that maybe we should use Tentera Usman, but apparently, he didn't understand that Usman / Uthman, were the "original" name of the Ottomans

EDIT : he does undertands that "Uthmani" is another name of the Turks, but he thinks that inclusion of the Pahlawan Uthmani, as opposed to Syamisir was a bit weird.

By the way, he had reported that current bodyguard units are (on large):

Europeans : - Knights ( full armoured heavy cavalry with lances and swords ) 20 horsemen per unit (1 HP)

Aceh-Melaka : - Gajah Kenaikan ( elephant archers bodyguards ) 12 men (4 elephants) per unit (4HP / elephants)

Sriwijaya-Palembang : - Pengawal ????? (heavy cavalry with lances and axes / or maybe maces) 30 horsemen per unit (1 HP)

Pajajaran : - Pengawal Kuda Purgabaya (heavy cavalry with javelins and parang (dual wield cavalry is impossible with curent animation stats) I don't know why he planned to made them into elite skirmisher typed cavalry as he using javelins and not lances. Ok, plutoboyz may know about that better, as they are 20 men per unit (2HP)

and this was the problem, the Javanese faction Bodyguards... actually, I and CW are arguing each other with what type of Bodyguards that they'll use...

well, the Javanese royalty have some weird (we can call them immposible to portay correctly in RTW) way to go to battle. Generally, the nobles will ride to battle as heavily armoured horse archers (close to what we call cataphracts), and true cataphract lancers (including turrangawesi, the specific Javanese horse armour that was made from lacquered wood paired with steel plates). But the true Royalty will be either (EITHER!!!) escorted by Chariots, or lifted in sedan chairs (how lazy!) into the battle. That was some account of Javanese Royalty riding horse into battle as Cataphract, but they are exceptions and those who fight as true cavalry are generally carrer generals, and not the pampered royalty...

well, taking the consideration on the default FM (which will be the born royalty bodyguards), they ride chariots into battle, or enjoy sedan chairs... but in Babad Tanah Jawi, if they are required to fought and bolster the men's morale....... THEY WILL FOUGHT DISMOUNTED.

well, and that was our subject of debate

1) I propose they should be chariot bodyguards, maybe chariot archers, the second points of this choice is : the Javanese army did have majority of Infantry, but cavalry is important aspect, and they have some of the best cavalry in this age, especially their mounted archers and cataphracts. It was a good reason to made the generals as cavalry units because they are supposed to be good cavalry factions... well... but

2) Cute Wolf propose they should be infantry bodyguards, as he points out that they fought dismounted, and in many records, the king himself would led the decisive charges on foot 9as opposed on the chariots), but this will be a bit ridiculous, remember that Javanese have good horsemen? and this will look like Saka army led by infantry generals... simply weird... confusing eh?

3) I try to made a compromise, they could be Cataphract archers bodyguards... as this way, they will capable to fought in melee, while have significant range and ability to skirmish out of the battle, and only involved personally only if required... but we still don't have one words in this matter... anyone could help with an idea? thanks...

[Nyz]

I agreed that Melaka using elephant as bodyguard. It was very clear in Hikayat too.

But for the sake of knowledge, Melaka royal members also used horses and palanquin (Paduka Tuan fought Portuguese on palanquin, that was stated in Sejarah Melayu), so it was same case as variety in Javanese bodyguard.

hmm, can the RTW engines make FM riding horse, than dismount when fighting?.... I don't think so.

[Rahwana]

yeah, but the Chariot - infantry - or cavalry bodyguards, are rather a big problem for us, at least now... what is your opinion then?

EDIT : the Javanese will have the best selection of cavalry, so I personally think CW ideas of presenting them with infantry BG are rather lame...

ADD: And I allready see that you mention the old unit lists, well, the slingers will be regionals, and the gun units have their own gunsmith buildings (the same with european barracks), so they will be put on the list later, when CW had done his works...

[Nyz]

yeah, but the Chariot - infantry - or cavalry bodyguards, are rather a big problem for us, at least now... what is your opinion then?

EDIT : the Javanese will have the best selection of cavalry, so I personally think CW ideas of presenting them with infantry BG are rather lame...

hmm, I don't want to speculate, but Hikayat Hang Tuah mentioned that Seri Betara Majapahit and Ratu Daha either riding elephant or horse.

[Rahwana]

hmm, I don't want to speculate, but Hikayat Hang Tuah mentioned that Seri Betara Majapahit and Ratu Daha either riding elephant or horse.

maybe we should made cavalry unit of them that way (sending SMS to CW's phone)... BTW, elephants is scarce commodity in Jawa, and elephant ridings was more ceremonial than practical.

ADD : And CW just said that made then 2 HP mounted archers is just silly, because the faction that should have the best close combat units is Pajajaran (the only one with 2HP bodyguards), made them into 20 men BG (like the europeans) will made them the worst bodyguard unit, while made them into 30 men Cataphract archers Bodyguards (just made them in line with South Sumateran cavalry bodyguards), will cause them to become de facto free upkeep Turanggawesi (javanese cataphract), because the standard Turanggawesi will only had 40 men per unit (they are rare unit, but have great impact in battle) maybe we should either raise the Javanese cataphract's numbers??? or let them become the cheapest and weakest BG arround with 20 men?

[plutoboyz]

yeah, I said to CW that maybe we should use Tentera Usman, but apparently, he didn't understand that Usman / Uthman, were the "original" name of the Ottomans

EDIT : he does undertands that "Uthmani" is another name of the Turks, but he thinks that inclusion of the Pahlawan Uthmani, as opposed to Syamisir was a bit weird...

no, their real name is Devlet-i ʿĀliye-yi ʿOsmāniyye. Osmāniyye for short (yes, it is how Ottoman turk call it.). Ustmani is for Arab, Persian. later introduced by the Persian to Aceh.
I have friend in Turkey. he knows a lot about Ottoman. do you have question about Ottoman army in Aceh?

Pajajaran : - Pengawal Kuda Purgabaya (heavy cavalry with javelins and parang (dual wield cavalry is impossible with curent animation stats) I don't know why he planned to made them into elite skirmisher typed cavalry as he using javelins and not lances. Ok, plutoboyz may know about that better, as they are 20 men per unit (2HP)

puragabaya actually able to use anykinds of weapon. kujang is favored among noble and their Javelin actually is a spear, Legionary fighting style was common. so my suggestion is:

Native name : Kasatrya Kuda Puragabaya.
English name: Sundanese Warrior preist cavalry.
Weapon: Kujang Pangarak(a spear-like kujang. like other kujang, its poisonous) and Javelin.

[Nyz]

and it was more logic involved, I see CW not yet giving the gunpowder units, but here's the gunpowder units for Melayu:
- Gun Skirmishers (cheap gun infantry - remember that guns are actually easier to use than bows, they will be short ranged like skirmishers, and not too accurate, but cheap and widely available)
- Gun troopers the Regular Gunners
- Turkish gun troopers (regular gunners - on par with european gunners)
- Elite musketters (elite unit)

Well, up to today, 3 phrases are found: Saldadu Istinggar, Pegawai Istinggar (both in Sejarah Melayu) and Awinan Astenggar (Hikayat Banjar dan Kota Waringin)

[Rahwana]

no, their real name is Devlet-i ʿĀliye-yi ʿOsmāniyye. Osmāniyye for short (yes, it is how Ottoman turk call it.). Ustmani is for Arab, Persian. later introduced by the Persian to Aceh.
I have friend in Turkey. he knows a lot about Ottoman. do you have question about Ottoman army in Aceh?

puragabaya actually able to use anykinds of weapon. kujang is favored among noble and their Javelin actually is a spear, Legionary fighting style was common. so my suggestion is:

Native name : Kasatrya Kuda Puragabaya.
English name: Sundanese Warrior preist cavalry.
Weapon: Kujang Pangarak(a spear-like kujang. like other kujang, its poisonous) and Javelin.

So we should made them into javelin-spear cavalry? hmm... just like Numidian Nobles?

[Cute Wolf]

so be it... thanks....

wait... did we finally agreed Javanese bodyguards as Catass Archers? any opinion?

[Cute Wolf]

After much re-reading arguments, articles, reviewing discussions, and taking into consideration of BOTH similar equipped and called units (so no more "hey, both of this units is called prajurit tumbak, they are equipped much the same, but why are two of them? the sundanese and javanese headgear is only a skin-deep portayal, no need to create another model nor another unit), reducing the overcrowding lists of elephants and chariots (dang! we could made most of them regionals)... so this is the unit lists...

Melayu (aceh-melaka)

factional (non gunpowder) infantry:
Melayu Watchmen (tombak) = Orang Berkawal
Melayu-Sriwj City Guards (archer-golok) = Pengawal Kota
Acehnese Swordsmen Militia (pedang) = Laskar Aceh
Malaka-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-tombak) = Penjurit
Melayu Shock Trooper (double scimitar) = Tentera Penggempur
Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Melayu-Sriwj Pikemen (pike-golok) = Pertikaman
Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Pangawitan
Acehnese Heavy Infantry (pedang) = Laskar Pedeung
Acehnese Cadet Shock Troopers (2handed peusangan) = Peusangan Askar
Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Laskar Pemanah
Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-kapak) = Hulubalang Laot
Melayu-Palemb-Bintr Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Sayyidi Arab
Malakan Royal Swordsmen (keris panjang) = Bentara Istana
Acehnese Honorary Guards (javelin-kapak) = Sahabat Istana

factional cavalry:
Melayu-Sriwj Militia Cav (cavjav-lancers) = Penunggang Kuda
Melayu-Sriwj Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces) = Kuda Perang
Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords) = Pegawai Dan Pertuanan
Melayu Turkish Cav (cavarchers-cavscimitars)
Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces) = Ulee Balang
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Melayu Royal War Elephants (elephant archers) = Gajah Perang Melayu

gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Melayu Regular Gunners (gun-golok)
Melayu Turkish Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars)

Bodyguard:
Melayu Bodyguards (elephant archers) = Gajah Kenaikan


Jawi (Bintara-Majapahit):

factional (non-gunpowder) infantry:
Javanese-Sundanese Peasants (sickles) = Tani
Javanese Militia (tombak) = Kroco
Javanese Watchmen (archer-golok) = Jogo Karyo
Java-Sunda Feudal Spearmen (javelin-overhead tombak) = Prajurit Tumbak
Javanese Feudal Swordsmen (parang) = Prajurit Pamedhang
Java-Sunda Feudal Archers (archer-golok) = Prajurit Panah
Bintara Pikemen (pike-keris) = Tentoro Tumbak Dowo
Majapahit Axemen (2handed kapak) = Prajurit Kampak Blambangan
Melayu-Palemb-Bintr Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Javanese "Saka" Heavy Spearmen (overhead tombakkeris) = Pagerwesi
Majapahit Armoured Macemen (gada) = Prajurit Godhowesi
Javanese Knights / Pendekar (2handed keris swords) = Pandhekar
Bintara Sultan's Chinese Guards (crossbow-scimitar) = Punggawa Cino
Javanese Noble Knights / Satria (keris panjang) = Satrio
Majapahit Royal Shadowguards (overhead tombakkeris) = Bhayangkara

Factional Cavalry:
Javanese Raider-Scouts (cavarchers-cavshortswords) = Telik Sandi
Javanese Feudal Cavalry (cavarchers-cavlswords) = Prajurit Tumpak Jaran
Javanese Noble Cataphract (cavarchers-cavlswords) = Turanggawesi
Javanese Cataphract Lancers (lancers-cavlswords) = Satriyo Turanggawesi
Javanese Elite Cataphracts (cavarchers-lancers) = Satriyo Priyayi
Javanese Chariots (chariot-archers) = Kreto Tempur
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Javanese Armoured War Elephantss (elephant-javelin) = Gajah Wesi

Gunpowder Units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Javanese Gunners (gun-keris)
Bintara-Palembang Royal Chinese Gunners (gun-dao)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)

Bodyguards:
Javanese Cataphract Bodyguards (cavarchers-kerislancers) = Punggawa Turanggawesi


Pajajaran:

factional (non gunpowder) infantry:
Javanese-Sundanese Peasants (sickles) = Tani
Sundanese Watchmen (golok) = Wado
Java-Sunda Feudal Spearmen (javelin-overhead tombak) = Prajurit Tumbak
Java-Sunda Feudal Archers (archer-golok) = Prajurit Panah
Sundanese Feudal Swordsmen (parang) = Pamarang
Sundanese Elite Watchmen (javelin-tombak) = Bayangkara
Sundanese Euro-Armoured Swordsmen (longswords) = Prajurit Bajubesi
Sundanese Royal Spearmen (tombakkujang) = Balamati
Sundanese Royal Bladesmen (javelin-kujang) = Balamati Kujang
Sundanese Jawara (double golok) = Jawara
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Swordsmen (parang) = Kasatrya Pamarang Purgabaya
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Bladesmen (javelin-kujang) = Kasatrya Kujang Purgabaya
Sundanese Elite Warrior-Priest (2handed tombakkujang) = Kasatrya Purgabaya

factional cavalry:
Sundanese Light Cavalry (cavjav-lancers) = Prajurit Tumpak Kuda
Sundanese Royal Horsemen (cavparang) = Balamati Tumpak Kuda
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Cav (cavjav-kujanglancers) = Kasatrya Kuda Purgabaya
Sundanese Chariot (chariot-archers) = Kereta Kuda
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Sundanese War Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Pasukan Gajah Siliwangi

gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Sundanese Euro-Armoured Gunners (gun-longswords)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)

Bodyguards:
Sundanese WarPri Cav Bodyguards (cavjav-kujanglancers) = Pengawal Purgabaya



South Sumatera (Palembang-Sriwijaya)

factional (non-gunpowder) infantry:
Sriwj Town Watch (pedang) = Penjaga Kota
Melayu-Sriwj City Guards (archer-golok) = Pengawal Kota
Sriwj Skirmishers (javelin-overhead tombak) = Pelempar Lembing
Malaka-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-tombak) = Penjurit
Sriwj Axe Soldiers (javelin-kapak) = Tentara Kapak
Sriwj Light Infantry (javelin-kukhri) = Tentara Sriwijaya
Sriwj Crossbowmen (crossbow-golok) = Pembidik
Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Melayu-Sriwj Pikemen (pike-golok) = Pertikaman
Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Pangawitan
Melayu-Palemb-Bintr Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Sriwj Elite Mariners (pedang panjang) = Pelaut Sriwijaya
Sriwijaya Elite Light Infantry (javelin-kukhri) = Kesatria Kukri
Palembang Palace Guards (keris panjang) = Pengawal Istana
Sriwijaya Black Lotus (2handed tombak) = Teratai Hitam

Factional Cavalry:
Melayu-Sriwj Militia Cav (cavjav-lancers) = Penunggang Kuda
Melayu-Sriwj Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces) = Kuda Perang
Sriwj Noble Cavalry (cavjav-kerislancers) = Prajurit Bangsawan
Sriwj Royal Cavalry (kerislancers-cavkapak) = Prajurit Kuda Istana
Sriwijayan Chariots (chariot-javelins) = Kereta Perang
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Sriwijayan War Elephants (elephant-archers) = Gajah Perang Sumatera

Gunpowder Units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Sriwj Indian Gunners (gun-scimitar)
Bintara-Palembang Royal Chinese Gunners (gun-dao)
Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)

Bodyguards:
Sriwj Bodyguards (lancers-cavaxes) = Pengawal Berkuda

EDIT : Stats will be updated later

well.... similar names, means they are one unit indeed... (kembali ngerjain TA... huhuhu)

[plutoboyz]

I have correct something.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pajajaran:

factional (non gunpowder) infantry:
Javanese-Sundanese Peasants (sickles) = Tani
Sundanese Watchmen (golok) = Wado
Java-Sunda Feudal Spearmen (javelin-overhead tombak) = Prajurit Tumbak
Java-Sunda Feudal Archers (archer-golok) = Prajurit Panah
Sundanese Feudal Swordsmen (parang) = Pamarang
Sundanese Elite Watchmen (javelin-tombak) = Bayangkara
Sundanese Jawara (double golok) = Jawara
Sundanese Euro-Armoured Swordsmen (longswords) = Pajurit Bajubesi
Sundanese Royal Spearmen (tombakkujang) = Balamati
Sundanese Royal Bladesmen (javelin-kujang) = Balamati Kujang
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Swordsmen (parang) = Kasatrya Pamarang Purgabaya
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Bladesmen (javelin-kujang) = Kasatrya Kujang Purgabaya
Sundanese Elite Warrior-Priest (2handed tombakkujang) = Kasatrya Purgabaya

factional cavalry:
Sundanese Light Cavalry (cavjav-lancers) = Pajurit Tumpak Kuda
Sundanese Royal Horsemen (cavparang) = Balamati Tumpak Kuda
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Cav (cavjav-kujanglancers) = Kasatrya Kuda Purgabaya
Sundanese Chariot (chariot-archers) = Kareta Kuda Perang (actually it can engage in melee combat as well, like chinese chariot.)
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah(better remove)
Sundanese War Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Pajurit Gajah Siliwangi

gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Sundanese Euro-Armoured Gunners (gun-longswords)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)

Bodyguards:
Sundanese WarPri Cav Bodyguards (cavjav-kujanglancers) = Pangawal Purgabaya or Pangawal Sang Hulu Jurit

btw, are Bintara and Majapahit army really same? I thought it was different.

[Cute Wolf]

what? you must never heard what your teacher says in history subjects... Kesultanan Demak are founded by Majapahit Muslim prince, "Raden Patah", who coordination with "wali songo" caused a significant portion of Majapahit army to embrace Islam, and support Demak instead... So that's why they are essentially same army type, with minor variants in elite units (Raden Patah and Wali Songo are Muslim Chinese, so it was not surprising, when the recent scroll translations shown that Demak employs sizeable numbers of Chinese (muslim) soldiers. While majapahit still stucked with older style soldiers, like macemen, and axemen, which was still very intimidating due to their prowess, and the later axemen employs war tattos made of human (enemy) blood)

well, and the "forest worker elephants" are esentially local elephant forces, pressed to serve in war..... better not to remove them... as they are generic unit for every native factions

[plutoboyz]

what? you must never heard what your teacher says in history subjects... Kesultanan Demak are founded by Majapahit Muslim prince, "Raden Patah", who coordination with "wali songo" caused a significant portion of Majapahit army to embrace Islam, and support Demak instead... So that's why they are essentially same army type, with minor variants in elite units (Raden Patah and Wali Songo are Muslim Chinese, so it was not surprising, when the recent scroll translations shown that Demak employs sizeable numbers of Chinese (muslim) soldiers. While majapahit still stucked with older style soldiers, like macemen, and axemen, which was still very intimidating due to their prowess, and the later axemen employs war tattos made of human (enemy) blood)

well, and the "forest worker elephants" are esentially local elephant forces, pressed to serve in war..... better not to remove them... as they are generic unit for every native factions

I do listen my teacher. but what I meant is that Demak, is one of most technologically advanced army along with Aceh, Melaka and Banten. there must be a significant difference between Majapahit and Demak.

btw, I don't see Balamati Pamanah? Removed? and about Pamarang, because their name is pamarang doesn't mean they carry Parang. they carry sword(Pědang).

[Cute Wolf]

I do listen my teacher. but what I meant is that Demak, is one of most technologically advanced army along with Aceh, Melaka and Banten. there must be a significant difference between Majapahit and Demak.

btw, I don't see Balamati Pamanah? Removed? and about Pamarang, because their name is pamarang doesn't mean they carry Parang. they carry sword(Pědang).

They can train pikemen, while Majapahit can't
They can train disciplined Arab Swordsmen, while Majapahit can't
They can train chinese gunners and elite guards (w crossbows), while Majapahit can't
And I not yet updated the artillery, but Majapahit will only get a few, while Demak had second best full acess of Artillery after Aceh... (discounting Europeans)

[plutoboyz]

They can train pikemen, while Majapahit can't
They can train disciplined Arab Swordsmen, while Majapahit can't
They can train chinese gunners and elite guards (w crossbows), while Majapahit can't
And I not yet updated the artillery, but Majapahit will only get a few, while Demak had second best full acess of Artillery after Aceh... (discounting Europeans)

Thats what I mean. you merge the list, confuse me. btw, Why Jawi? Jawi is Malaysian Arab Abjad. and where is trisula warrior? Sriwijaya known for It's Trisula User.

[Cute Wolf]

Thats what I mean. you merge the list, confuse me. btw, Why Jawi? Jawi is Malaysian Arab Abjad. and where is trisula warrior? Sriwijaya known for It's Trisula User.

I'm affraid you are mistaken about Jawi... ancient Javanese called the greater jawa as Jawi... and remember that one of the primary sources are "Babad Tanah Jawi"

And about Trisula? I know it, but it was more ceremonial (and assasination-related) nature than battle worthy... a dagger which only had a small section of sharpened tip, no more than 30 cm in blade length, and the proper user must put his middle and index fingers in the grip. I think their nobles will carry it on their armour as backup, but an't be portayed in real battle sequences...

And if you may argue that will be longer variation for battle, I will said that put aside Strict Palembang and Pasemah Area, there was no evidence of widespread trisula weaponary... perhaps we could use them as regionals? (but definitely not with 30 cm blade)

[plutoboyz]

30 cm? no, I mean The Spear version. its used sometimes by Sunda-Galuh, Banten and Cirebon which I'm sure introduced by Sriwijayan during Java Expedition.

[Cute Wolf]

oh, garpu perang? (Damn, when I heard Trisula, I always remember Ninja Turtles).... ngga banyak dipakai, mungkin ntar jadi regional aja...

[Nyz]

gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Melayu Regular Gunners (gun-golok)
Melayu Turkish Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars)

Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub) : Penjurit Istinggar / Laskar Istinggar, which one better?

Melayu Regular Gunners (gun-golok) : Pegawai Istinggar

Melayu Turkish Gunners (gun-scimitars) : Soldadu Istinggar / Ispinggar (well, in Hikayat hang Tuah, the one that used scimitar and gun was called serdadu / seridadu / soldadu or we are using Turkish language?, while ispinggar is in Hikayat Acheh, the soldier that used gun and Busur Perasi (Persian-bow, used by crew of Mir'at as-Safa [Acheh Royal battleship])

Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars) : Awinan Estanggar (Awinan / Pengawinan is royal spear-bearer, can we design the gun to be decorated?)

Melayu Turkish Cav (cavarchers-cavscimitars)

Not found any translated word yet. Maybe we can use Turkish word?

Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-kapak) = Hulubalang Laot

I think Laut is the standard spelling in Kamus.

Melayu Shock Trooper (double scimitar) = Tentera Penggempur

First, I suggest Tentera penggempur because I directly translated it from English. But when you said it was employed because of the "Pengampunan" system, I suggest new name: Orang Suruhan (this phrase was found many in Hikayat and text), or Orang Kerahan (found in Syair Sultan Maulana) or Tentera Kerahan / Askar Kerahan / Kerahan Tenaga

[plutoboyz]

wolf, what you mean about Turkish Soldier, is it about Osmani soldier under Kurtoğlu? or about Aceh soldier that trained by Osmani Officer? my friend confused.