Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion

[Cute Wolf]

but as far as offices are concerned, Sultan of Aceh actually had several lesser sultans with him, Sultan of Deli, Sultan of Siak, Sultan of Marrangi... all are Aceh's subordinate, and relatives...

yeah, muslim historian (no muslim bashing intended), almost always downplays the "murtadin" rulers of a previously muslim empire... they are usually mentioned as bad and tyrant kings (even when outside sources prove otherwise), if still recognized as leader... or wrote them as rebel ruler (which was quite illogical, since Aryo Penangsang was actually Sultan Trenggana's Nephew, and direct descendant of Raden Patah... he was more legitimate ruler than Joko Tingkir, who was Sultan's son in law). If not because another historian's writings (taken from Bali "Wong Majapahit" scrolls)....

[plutoboyz]

actually Raja or Maharaja is not always tied with Hindu.
How about "Sri Paduka Maharaja" or "Sri Prabu" or "Ratu" (not Indonesian Ratu).



and Cutewolf, as an orthodox muslim. I doubt that "biased" historian was real muslim.

[Cute Wolf]

actually Raja or Maharaja is not always tied with Hindu.
How about "Sri Paduka Maharaja" or "Sri Prabu" or "Ratu" (not Indonesian Ratu).



and Cutewolf, as an orthodox muslim. I doubt that "biased" historian was real muslim.

that was the fact of several hindu rulers, who recorded as rebel, instead of legitimate rulers by muslim sources, where hindu and or european sources said that was legitimate rulers... oh yeah, those "biased" historian was really muslim... (no religious offense intended), look at hikayat wali songo then...

EDIT : they did wrote that there was hindu kings or rulers as sucessor to muslim rulers... but they always stressed them as either tyrant, incompetent, or rebellious rulers... we must admit that something must be going wrong... (did you believe that all hindu rulers after some period of muslim rule eastablishments... all are tyrant and incompetent?)

[plutoboyz]

that was the fact of several hindu rulers, who recorded as rebel, instead of legitimate rulers by muslim sources, where hindu and or european sources said that was legitimate rulers... oh yeah, those "biased" historian was really muslim... (no religious offense intended), look at hikayat wali songo then...

EDIT : they did wrote that there was hindu kings or rulers as sucessor to muslim rulers... but they always stressed them as either tyrant, incompetent, or rebellious rulers... we must admit that something must be going wrong... (did you believe that all hindu rulers after some period of muslim rule eastablishments... all are tyrant and incompetent?)

I mean they are muslim who do not learn Islam from Quran. propaganda also play some role on spreading religion.

and also, ancient historian have their own agenda. example; the greeks and the word "barbarian"

and I can't judge whether they are Evil or Good. I never live during their reign.

[Cute Wolf]

I mean they are muslim who do not learn Islam from Quran. propaganda also play some role on spreading religion.

and also, ancient historian have their own agenda. example; the greeks and the word "barbarian"

and I can't judge whether they are Evil or Good. I never live during their reign.

ok, ok... forget about some lengthy religious debate, let's going back to the titles and offices discussion.... what did you suggest if your muslim sultan have a heir who was a hindu? (put aside made anyone else as heir, killing him, or declare him as outlaw, we need to think of the offices name after some peaceful religion shift....)

[plutoboyz]

ok, ok... forget about some lengthy religious debate, let's going back to the titles and offices discussion.... what did you suggest if your muslim sultan have a heir who was a hindu? (put aside made anyone else as heir, killing him, or declare him as outlaw, we need to think of the offices name after some peaceful religion shift....)

hmm... Raja or Maharaja. because Raja is already adopted as Indonesian and Malay language. some Muslim Ruler also use Raja or Maharaja.

[Cute Wolf]

so, I think (because of limitation, and yeah, not only aceh, but some other sultanates have sultan of sultan titles, such as Sultan of Belitong are vassal of the Sultan of Palembang) we should made this generalization this much....

Faction leader got:
- if he was a muslim : Sultan (and taken as ephitet)
- If he was not a muslim : Maharaja (and taken as ephitet)

Governmental offices:
- if he was a muslim, and rule the historical Sultanate seat : Sultan Bla-bla-bla (offices only, not ephitet)
- if he was a muslim, but not rule the historical Sultanate seat : Raja Bla-bla-bla
- if he wasn't a muslim : Raja Bla-bla-bla...

[Nyz]

In Sejarah Melayu, the gun user was called Pegawai Istinggar. Used by Sultanate of Johor after the fall of Melaka to face Portuguese. But I am not sure wheather they were skirmisher, regular or elite, but the word Pegawai have connotation with middle class soldier.

BTW, the Turkish soldier in Acheh were called by Tuskish names or Acheh names?

of course we know that sultan of Rum, means turks, because if we go letter for letter, Jirisys might be confused

~Jirisys (You are not confused, do you?)

[Nyz]

but as far as offices are concerned, Sultan of Aceh actually had several lesser sultans with him, Sultan of Deli, Sultan of Siak, Sultan of Marrangi... all are Aceh's subordinate, and relatives...

I not really sure how Sultanate of Acheh works, but in Malaysia it was like that. Even until now the King of Perlis is known by Raja Perlis.

"The State of Perlis (Negeri Perlis Indera Kayangan) has its origins during the period of Thai rule over the northern Malay states. The Thais followed a classic "divide and rule policy" and divided the state of Kedah into sevelal region, namely Perlis, Kubang Pasu, Setul and Kedah. Perlis, a region within Kedah, became a separate polity under the former Sultan Zia ud-din Mukarram Shah II, after he abdicated in 1803.

Sultan Zia's daughter married a Syed of Arabic descent, named Abu Bakar Harun Jamal' ul-Lail. The latter had been Penghulu, or subordinate chief, of Arau since 1797. His son and successor, Syed Husain received promotion to Raja of Perlis Indera Kayangan in 1843 by Thai's king, after helping the Thais to suppress a revolt by the Raja of Ligor. Raja of Perlis never installed properly as a Sultan, until now."

yeah, muslim historian (no muslim bashing intended), almost always downplays the "murtadin" rulers of a previously muslim empire... they are usually mentioned as bad and tyrant kings (even when outside sources prove otherwise), if still recognized as leader... or wrote them as rebel ruler (which was quite illogical, since Aryo Penangsang was actually Sultan Trenggana's Nephew, and direct descendant of Raden Patah... he was more legitimate ruler than Joko Tingkir, who was Sultan's son in law). If not because another historian's writings (taken from Bali "Wong Majapahit" scrolls)....

I am not sure about that, but Sejarah Melayu or Hikayat Hang Tuah never mention about "Murtadin" as bad and tryrant kings. Even Hikayat Hang Tuah praised the Hindu's King of Vijayanagar and Nagapattinam as benevolent and justice.

actually Raja or Maharaja is not always tied with Hindu.
How about "Sri Paduka Maharaja" or "Sri Prabu" or "Ratu" (not Indonesian Ratu).

That's what I am trying to say in my #137 and #139 posts.

ok, ok... forget about some lengthy religious debate, let's going back to the titles and offices discussion.... what did you suggest if your muslim sultan have a heir who was a hindu? (put aside made anyone else as heir, killing him, or declare him as outlaw, we need to think of the offices name after some peaceful religion shift....)

I have suggest many example in my #137 and #139 posts. He can become bendahara, temenggung, laksamana (even laksamana come from the word Laksmi, Hindu Goddess), and Penghulu Bendahari, or just give him Raja or Maharaja.