Casse Rivals- A proposition

[anubis88]

I'm sorry, but this seems to me like an extreme longshot. I do believe that other factions deserve the spot, more than another british tribe.

Also, there has been a lot of debate about the Casse being in the game in the first place, so i really don't see another faction up there

[Moros]

The atrebates indeed appear to have ruled land on both sides of the english channel. However it seems that the Belgae were still on their way to Belgica at our startdate, they didn't yet settle in the lands they'd live in during Caesars time.

[ziegenpeter]

And this rivalry would be very quickly over since two one-settlement factions starting next to each others would lead to a soon death of one of these factions, I guess

[seienchin]

Having the Casse in the Game is in my opinion quite far stretched so why not having another faction in britain?
As long as it is no goidilic faction with only heavy armoured elite units.

[bobbin]

Having the Casse in the Game is in my opinion quite far stretched so why not having another faction in britain?

Mainly because there are numerous other potential factions that are better candidates.

[Ludens]

Kudos to Brennus for researching an alternative Briton faction, rather than throwing out the Caledonians again.

I am not convinced, though. "Stopping the expansions of another faction" is a poor reason for spending a faction slot. There's other ways of doing that. Also, if they start out at war, you are most likely merely delaying the problem until one of them beats the other. Lastly, faction expansion is probably going to be different in EB2 because the A.I. is programmed differently.

[oudysseos]

Not a bad thought, but the major problem is that the game starts in 272 BCE, and there is no evidence of the Atrebates being in Britain that early. The Aylesford-Swarling Culture probably begins around 75 BCE, and some have suggested that the situation that Caesar found in southern Britain was of very recent origin, and may in fact have been greatly influenced by previous events in Gaul. That makes it hard to talk about what a British faction might have looked like had there not been a Roman Hegemony.

[Brennus]

Kudos to Brennus for researching an alternative Briton faction, rather than throwing out the Caledonians again.

I am not convinced, though. "Stopping the expansions of another faction" is a poor reason for spending a faction slot. There's other ways of doing that. Also, if they start out at war, you are most likely merely delaying the problem until one of them beats the other. Lastly, faction expansion is probably going to be different in EB2 because the A.I. is programmed differently.

Thank you for the kudus. I suggested the Atrebates not to prevent the Casse from expanding but to do the very opposite, to prompt them to expand. I have noticed in my non-Casse games that the neutrality that exists between the Casse and Eleutheroi at the start of the game oftens prevents the AI Casse from expanding.

I agree with what people have been saying about the 170 year gap or so that exists between the start of the game and the currently accepted date for the Ayelsfor-Swarling culture beginning. What about the Arras culture of the Parisi in Yorkshire? Does anyone know how early that culture is? Again that would be relatively easy to research as the Parisi of Gaul would have had a culture very similar to the Averni and Aedui already present. The only problem is that, unlike the Casse, the Parisi were not major political players in Iron Age Briton (at least according to the few hisotrical records we have).

I sympathise with people who think another British faction is a waste of time, I am just Celt mad.

I also agree with people who argue against a Goidelic faction, although personally I would love to see a Goidelic faction, the archaeological evidence for this period in Ireland is very limited and the historical records (mostly derived from legends and the Annals of Ulster) would not provide accurate information.

[oudysseos]

What about the Arras culture of the Parisi in Yorkshire? Does anyone know how early that culture is? Again that would be relatively easy to research as the Parisi of Gaul would have had a culture very similar to the Averni and Aedui already present. The only problem is that, unlike the Casse, the Parisi were not major political players in Iron Age Briton (at least according to the few hisotrical records we have).

That's it in a nutshell: the Parisoi and other tribes in the Northumberland/Vale of Pickering area had a distinct archaeological culture from at least 400 BCE: but there is no evidence that they became a major regional power. This makes them somewhat less attractive prospects as factions. The Brigantes were a major regional power, but this seems likely to have happened only after the Roman invasion- there is not much in the record that we can tie to the Brigantes in the 3rd century BCE.

That's the major challenge with British factions: there is a lot of information from the Middle Iron Age but no history: the earliest British individual known to us is Cassivellaunus in the 50s BCE, more than 200 years after our start date. A lot happened in that time, but we don't know the exact details.

Look, if there were no faction limit (and more importantly, no province limit), I'm pretty sure that we'd end up with two native British factions. As it is, I'm not going to give out any hints, but there is a lot of work that has gone into Britain, and I can't wait to show it to everyone. Patience! We are working away at EB2. If you can skin and/or model, we need you!


BTW, the bible for this subject is Iron Age Communities in Britain by Barry Cunliffe. A less expensive alternative is An Imperial Possession by Mattingly or The Britons by Christopher Snyder. It is a fascinating subject with a lot of very good literature.

[B-Wing]

Clearly not a lot of popular support around here for another faction in northwest Europe, but I personally agree with Brennus's sentiments. The Atrebates position seems interesting, though if it came down to picking one and only one additional faction for the region, I'd probably prefer to have the Brigantes.

The main draw to Atrebates (to me) would be the possibility of starting with territories on both sides of the English channel. However, it would seem that given the way the current campaign map is in EB1, their holdings on the north side would be synonymous with Cassemorg, which is Casse's only starting province. So unless the EB2 team decides to squeeze another province into Britain (which would mean cutting one from somewhere else, a very unlikely scenario), the Atrebates would realistically be starting with one of the two Belgic provinces. And then you're left with the question, "If we're going to include a Belgic tribe as playable, why the Atrebates when there are other good (and probably better) contenders to represent a Belgic faction?"

I think a Belgic faction would be great, and I strongly suspect that one will be included in EB2, but if we're debating a best choice for a new faction with a British presence, then I think Brigantes are your best choice. I think the main reason to include a "rival" for the Casse is that they're boring to play. I haven't been playing EB very long (maybe a year) and have only been visiting these forums a couple months, but I suspect most players never bother with the Casse, and those that due probably find themselves establishing a hegemony over the British Isles before looking toward Continental Europe, where the real action (and challenge) is. The Casse are not threatened by any other factions for a long time and, besides financial difficulties, there's nothing to prevent them from slowly (or quickly) conquering Great Britain and Ireland. Adding the Brigantes in their titular province would change things a great deal, though admittedly I don't see it making campaigns more interesting for players of other factions.

I know there are candidates for playable factions with much higher priority in terms of historical significance (and information), but if I understand correctly there will be room for at least nine additional factions in EB2, and the only three are confirmed so far, leaving at least six more slots. By the time the team gets down to selecting that final faction or two, I think the Brigantes look pretty good in comparison to the remaining choices.

[Brennus]

Excellent points by B Ray, and you are right about Cassemorg. The only problem is finding the evidence for the Brigantes.

I agree with you though the Brigantes would probably be the best option for a rival tribe (after the Atrebates, politically speaking, geographically speaking the Brigantes are a much more sound choice) other major tribes and confederations in Britain appear to have either been ad hoc groups created to resist Rome (the Caledonians) or were subject to the Casse in some form (Silures, Iceni and Catti).

[Genava]

But with the Adrebates, it would be necessary to represent their cultural evolution due to a Belgian migration (between second century BC and the first century BC).

For a Britannic faction, I prefer the Brigantes. A war between the Brigantes (natives) and the Casses (Belgian foreigner) represent better the cultural evolution of the Britain.