Casse Rivals- A proposition

[bobbin]

and before the brigantes there´s still alot to be discussed around sicily and massilia since we can now subdivide regions to express that there might a leading city but she wasn´t totally in control of the region wich ofc gives the western greeks a fair chance to show up and fight their regional power batles

Massalia was ruled out by the team a very long time ago.

[Macilrille]

Unfortunately. I would really- really like to see Massilia in.

[Ludens]

Massalia was ruled out by the team a very long time ago.

Was it? I thought they merely ruled out a KH-style alliance between Massalia and its colonies Emporion and Saguntum, on the grounds that the ties between them were never that strong.

[Horatius Flaccus]

Well, according to this post (83), it was.

[Ibrahim]

Well, according to this post (83), it was.

well, maybe they will unrule it out now?

[oudysseos]

The problem with Massalia is that, in game terms, it starts out with the same amount of territory that historically it achieved- it never really showed a propensity to expand. The TW engine is not well suited to showing the kind of economic influence that Massalia exerted, so it's hard to see it as a stand-alone faction, although it is high on our list of things we would do if only there were no hard coded limits.

[Ludens]

Well, according to this post (83), it was.

I stand corrected.

[moonburn]

sorry for the way i barged in it might have been too enthusiastic/agressive

i think that if the western greeks have a fair chance at the game they should start with sicily and then have an objective like conquering the entire sicilian homelands and then going for sardinia and corsica when the sicilians do this the massilians would join them in a kinf of western greek confederation but only if the siracusians/sicilians proved to be able to defend the western greeks from the poeni by conquering sicily and sardinia/corsica

once the western greeks managed to conquer the baleares the wester greeks in iberia could maybe join the union as a type 3 group

or then if the sicilians conquer sicily the massilians would join them in a type 3 alliance if they conquered corsica a type 2 union and if they conquered sardinia and the baleares (or kick out the poeni from the med islands) they would gain the suport of the iberian greeks since they would be perceived as strong enough to "suport" the greek colonies of iberia and their merchant interests against the poeni

a secondary goal to be to defend magna grecia from the romans by liberating southern italy

it´s like the getae trying to gather all the thracians together

ofc this is just me day dreaming but could make a siracuse campaign the best gaming experience ever imho with the siracuse hoplites holding the center the massilians cutting off the flanks and the greek noble cavalry pressing home for the victory while the balearic slingers range havoc from a distance

[oudysseos]

Whew!

Moonburn, there is something to what you say, but there was never any kind of Western Greek Confederation of the sort that you mention, nor, as far as I am concerned, any indication that such a confederation was ever possible. Just because the people of Agathe Tyche and Locri Epizephyrii both spoke Greek doesn't mean that they had any political common ground. Quite the opposite, I'm afraid.

[moonburn]

i know odysseus you explained it to me in an all too painfull detail but for instance the fall of tarentum happened out of their arrogance by sinking a roman fleet and then they runned to phyrrus for suport (had syracuse been the stronger greeks around they would probably have runned to syracuse for suport)

when corsica alalia (?) fall to the poeni the massillians wanted to intervene but they weren´t strong enough thus the reason why i say "if syracuse and the sicilian greeks managed to be strong enough to defend the other western med greeks" they would all eventually ask for suport from them and would ofc in the nice greek tradition be forced to join in a new league (athens did it spartha did it and so did thebes so why wouldn´t the syracusans do it ?)

as far as i can recall tarentum was an extremly wealthy city so rich that they hired mercenaries to fight for them instead of recruiting and "forcing" their citizens to fight, syracuse was a pearl amongst greek city´s and thats how it managed to fend off the poeni time after time after time and they even burned alot of poeni 6 store high buildings in retaliation in the 4th century (?), one can argue that had they been smarter when dealing with the marmentines and the bruttians and more politically united they might have been able to flush out the poeni out of sicily instead of going to italy to fight wars against other greek city´s in the times of agatocles or hiero the 1st (and there was another one i can´t recall that was a tiran)

just because the western mediterranean greeks weren´t very united that doesn´t mean we can´t rewritte history and a strong greek ruller in the western mediterranean can´t win their wars against the poeni instead of having to resort to roman influence time after time after time until the greeks are all tied up by what rome says

we know that the mediterranean was always an hub for trading wars (as far back as the trojan wars) we can deduce that there was some sort of cold war beteween the greeks and the poeni over trade
we also know that syracuse if they manage to gain control of the entire sicily and sardinia and corsica will be trapped beteween rome and carthage but a few of us wouldn´t mind the challange expecially if we get to win over massilia or emporion or arse in the process of kicking the chartaginians and roman butts and become the great western soter \o and be able to scream "no more will roman boots trample and humilliate the greeks for zeus and mars onward to liberate Tarentum" <--- herm got a litle bit carried away on this part

ofc i´m going on a very long stretch to compare the way tarentum acted and compare the leagues of greece proper to what might have happened if the syracusans had managed to be "smarter" but in the end it would all come down to how well a player could act if the player is not advanced enough in all arts then syracuse would never survive past the 1st 40 turns but the trufh is that a single language is a way to be closer to someone and thus easyer to ask for suport because some iberian tribe or some celtiberian tribe is threatning you if you don´t pay them more for the metals they offer you