The Geert Wilders trial

[Fragony]

Thoughts? This is pretty big over here but it gets a lot of foreign attention as well.

http://www.nrc.nl/international/arti..._Wilders_trial

Pat Condel pretty much sums up my thoughts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJKRF2uB8xU

They can do as they please I don't care, the idiots put the islam itself on trial in their desire to silence Wilders, thx for that how stupid can you be. He can't be convicted because a judge will have to decide wether or not muslims are insulted, that is an opinion and thus it has no legal grounds. They made a very big mistake, best to feel the temperature of the water before taking a dive. I am furious they are trying it though, this is an attack on the freedom of speech, and millions of voters are on trial today.

[Crazed Rabbit]

It seems even bringing this to trial is a defeat for freedom of speech.

CR

[InsaneApache]

This trial offends me. Who do I complain to?

[Fragony]

It seems even bringing this to trial is a defeat for freedom of speech.

CR

Next elections will be a triumph for freedom of speech, everybody is sick and tired of the incredibly intrusive socialist/christian government we have now. Even my mom is now voting for him out of protest, the idiots made a big mistake. It's really unlike anything we have seen before, the justice department correctly established that he hasn't done anything wrong, but the court itself took the initiative, absolutely unheard of and without question politically motivated, they will find that it is really they who are on trial.

[Kralizec]

It wasn't the CDA or PvdA who decided he should be prosecuted, Frag.

I don't think what Wilders did should be punishable under law, but the fact is, people have been prosecuted and convicted on those articles before. The idea that the Netherlands is becoming some sort of dictatorship specifically because Geert Wilders might be convicted is ridiculous. Geert is suffering from a messiah complex, I think

[Fragony]

It wasn't the CDA or PvdA who decided he should be prosecuted, Frag.

I don't think what Wilders did should be punishable under law, but the fact is, people have been prosecuted and convicted on those articles before. The idea that the Netherlands is becoming some sort of dictatorship specifically because Geert Wilders might be convicted is ridiculous. Geert is suffering from a messiah complex, I think

If he gets convicted they can ban his party, which would be very convenient.

You are a student of law, if he gets convicted he will be convicted because of the opinion of a judge, as the judge has to decide wether or not muslims are to be offended and he lacks the expertise, high court will never accept it if he takes it higher, or maybe they will?

[The Wizard]

I suppose I should oppose this, being a liberal and all, but I hate the guy's guts so much I can't help but secretly hope for a conviction.

Also, FYI, the "opinion of a judge" is a well-motivated legal argument with legal standing. Not just some Geert-voting idiot screaming something stupid.

[Fragony]

Also, FYI, the "opinion of a judge" is a well-motivated legal argument with legal standing. Not just some Geert-voting idiot screaming something stupid.

When it concerns the law, and in how far it should be applied, but the judge has to decide wether or not what Wilders said is offensive and there is no law against offense so that don't fly here. They have gotten themselves into a juridical minefield here.

but I hate the guy's guts so much I can't help but secretly hope for a conviction.

Oh be nice to my boy, he certainly crosses the line when it comes to good manners but he has his heart at the right place.

[Tellos Athenaios]

It is not at all clear cut whether or not Wilders' more extreme/rabid pronouncements were well within the law: a lot of that depends on context, and there is a significant difference between e.g. an argument about the Quran as an insidious violence-condoning disgrace to humanity comparing it with Mein Kampf; and e.g. an argument about the Quran as such a book in a broader diatribe against immigrants. EDIT: Basically the judge's verdict amounts to that: a better, more thorough verdict beside OM's assesment on whether or not Wilders' was guilty of the charges must be established; and to do so requires a full trial, by law.

IIRC: Nobody accused Sibbel & Jansen for their show in which they slammed the doomed-to-failure proposals by overzealous CDA types to explicitly forbid blasphemy by using a deliberately blasphemous portrayal of Mohamed (and lets face it that portrayal was scarcely more of a hagiography than is Wilders portrayal of the same Mohamed); nobody filed a complaint about that.

At any rate: It is likely that he would be cleared of all charges (which is why OM didn't prosecute in the first place) but that is a different matter.

[Fragony]

I don't think they are, but I am not lawyer mind you, but I don't see anything coming from this except more seats which is fine with me (vote for PVV myself) I don't know Sibbel & Jansen but if they work for the state-television it's hardly surprising they didn't get any trouble over it like Gregorius Nekschot did. Juridically this is going to be interesting, politically things have been interesting for quite some time.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Sibbel has stage name Lebbis; they both earn their living on stage similar to Nahjib Amhali, Theo Maassen etc. That should remind you of who they are.

[Fragony]

I don't watch tv, sorry never heard of them, sounds refreshing though. Know what you are talking about though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvOS...rom=PL&index=1

love this guy

[Skullheadhq]

This trial will only increase it's popularity and votes, so why complain?

[The Wizard]

When it concerns the law, and in how far it should be applied, but the judge has to decide wether or not what Wilders said is offensive and there is no law against offense so that don't fly here. They have gotten themselves into a juridical minefield here.

I do believe there are laws and jurisprudence in the subject field. This is undeniable. Wilders has made some very shady remarks about certain groups of people, as have people in the past. Presenting it as if the judge is tracking uncharted ground or stumbling around in the dark is a gross misrepresentation. The fact our little peroxide loving powermonger has said certain things that are extremely questionable, and I'm being charitable here.

but I hate the guy's guts so much I can't help but secretly hope for a conviction.

Oh be nice to my boy, he certainly crosses the line when it comes to good manners but he has his heart at the right place.

If "having your heart at the right place" includes a ruthless lust for power and an inexplicable hatred for people of a different background, then I respectfully decline.

[Fragony]

This trial will only increase it's popularity and votes, so why complain?

Because they won't play fair and won't keep the debate where it belongs, and the parliament is where that is. They will use every trick at their disposal to be able to keep doing nothing. They did the same thing with Fortuyn, this has nothing to do with ideas on how to run a country but with a sick and tired political elite caught in their own game fighting for their existence by any means necesary.

If "having your heart at the right place" includes a ruthless lust for power and an inexplicable hatred for people of a different background, then I respectfully decline.

As long as lefties feel the need to cater every backward aspect of Islam I respectfully decline as well, he is quite popular among immigrants by the way, also muslims coming from hardline islamic society's like Iran. At this moment I don't really care what he kicks as long as he keeps doing it, we need a new government, I feel cornered and I will scratch and bite to get out.

[The Wizard]

I disagree. Most of the people who got the DA to charge him are most certainly not part of the political-bureaucratic elite (PvdA, VVD, CDA) you speak of. Just admit already that Wilders does more than simply be the brave knight fighting the seven-headed hydra of political incompetence called our current cabinet. Which, I might add, he doesn't do in the first place.

[Andres]

Can't they drop the charges if he promises to change his haircut?

It's horrible.

[Fragony]

I disagree. Most of the people who got the DA to charge him are most certainly not part of the political-bureaucratic elite (PvdA, VVD, CDA) you speak of.

Amsterdam court took the initiative after the DA dropping charges, only one person can enforce that and that is the minister of justice, that is unheard of and a violation of our trias politica. The people putting the charges are funded by Oxam-Novib who recieve over 200 million euro's of tax money every year, among others. The hydra, yeah.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Can't they drop the charges if he promises to change his haircut?

Didn't you hear? Wilders stopped dyeing his hair.

[Fragony]

[Tellos Athenaios]

Amsterdam court took the initiative after the DA dropping charges, only one person can enforce that and that is the minister of justice, that is unheard of and a violation of our trias politica.

No. OM was taken to court over the matter and ordered to prosecute. And I don't know where we got trias politica from here; but in any case the fundamental part of trias politica is that the 3 branches have the power to boss each other around to some extent (it is not merely curtailing each other), otherwise these could do as they pleased. And Dutch law works still differently; with more, much more power to courts than you might notice at first.

The people putting the charges are funded by Oxam-Novib who recieve over 200 million euro's of tax money every year, among others. The hydra, yeah.

Irrelevant; Oxfam-Novib is an international NGO not held to furthering the aims of whichever source their money comes from but held to furthering its own aims with anyone welcome to donate if they sympathize with these aims. The Dutch state expresses its sympathy with these goals by supporting the NGO with money; but that does not and should not mean its political elite can count on ‘favours’ of any kind in return.

[Fragony]

Irrelevant; Oxfam-Novib is an international NGO not held to furthering the aims of whichever source their money comes from but held to furthering its own aims with anyone welcome to donate if they sympathize with these aims. The Dutch state expresses its sympathy with these goals by supporting the NGO with money; but that does not and should not mean its political elite can count on ‘favours’ of any kind in return.

But of course. No, Nederland bekend kleur and the AFA and the IS who are behind the charges, to name a few, are all directly funded via Oxam Novib who get 200 million a year. On top of what they already got. Feel free to check it out.

http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Ne...kent-Kleur.htm

chew before swallowing, these 135 million are just government support by the way, so no you do not have a point, yes some fools give them money.

[The Wizard]

Amsterdam court took the initiative after the DA dropping charges, only one person can enforce that and that is the minister of justice, that is unheard of and a violation of our trias politica. The people putting the charges are funded by Oxam-Novib who recieve over 200 million euro's of tax money every year, among others. The hydra, yeah.

Erm no, the judiciary is independent. I'm not an expert, but if our democracy here works then the Minister of Justice does not decide what a court does and doesn't do.

What Tellos said is right. That the people who are bringing charges are funded by an NGO doesn't really say much about my argument, considering there are apparently plenty of people outside the political elite in our country who take great offense to what this character is saying. And they need money to press charges. Perhaps that should tell you something...

[Ser Clegane]

Hmmm...

[Fragony]

Erm no, the judiciary is independent. I'm not an expert, but if our democracy here works then the Minister of Justice does not decide what a court does and doesn't do.

What Tellos said is right. That the people who are bringing charges are funded by an NGO doesn't really say much about my argument, considering there are apparently plenty of people outside the political elite in our country who take great offense to what this character is saying. And they need money to press charges. Perhaps that should tell you something...

They don't need any money as they can grow fat on unlimited budgets, they are just protecting their positions and it's going to end, they know that they will have to find a real job to prove their worth, the money is gone it is somewhere in Iceland and there isn't going to be any place for them very soon, they hold on to what they have and we are going to chop of whatever they are holding on to. There is a place and a time for everything, and here happens to be right now. They raped us and now I am going to rape them whenever my pickle allows it, c'est ca, had their warning a few years back and he is dead so now survival is key and I am going to hurt just about everything when I can even when it is irrational. If I have to be sorry, I forgot how to be sorry. Sick of this, a 12 year old girl being hit by a car by these pests.

I am sick of this mindless cruelty towards people who can't defend their selves, the old, the sick, the disabled. All they see is an easy target that is easy to rob.

[Hax]

I am sick of this mindless cruelty towards people who can't defend their selves, the old, the sick, the disabled. All they see is an easy target that is easy to rob.

This isn't related to Islam. This is related to cultural problems. Or does mr. Wilders seriously believe Muslims in Turkey, Syria, and Morocco are the same?

Get real, please.

[Skullheadhq]

@Frag
Can't win this discussion? Do what Geert would do, blame the left

[Fragony]

This isn't related to Islam. This is related to cultural problems. Or does mr. Wilders seriously believe Muslims in Turkey, Syria, and Morocco are the same?

Get real, please.

I know, but it isn't me who is throwing it all on the same pile, the people coming to the defense are. The euro left had made it's choice and they have chosen the more radical aspects of the Islam. I sometimes wonder how many muslims have fallen prey to your best intention, or more like, how many lives these good intentions have ruined, can name you a few.

[The Wizard]

They don't need any money as they can grow fat on unlimited budgets, they are just protecting their positions and it's going to end, they know that they will have to find a real job to prove their worth, the money is gone it is somewhere in Iceland and there isn't going to be any place for them very soon, they hold on to what they have and we are going to chop of whatever they are holding on to. There is a place and a time for everything, and here happens to be right now. They raped us and now I am going to rape them whenever my pickle allows it, c'est ca, had their warning a few years back and he is dead so now survival is key and I am going to hurt just about everything when I can even when it is irrational. If I have to be sorry, I forgot how to be sorry. Sick of this, a 12 year old girl being hit by a car by these pests.

I am sick of this mindless cruelty towards people who can't defend their selves, the old, the sick, the disabled. All they see is an easy target that is easy to rob.

This is ridiculous. You extrapolate individual cases to a mindless mass of savages you term "them" and by which you mean "immigrants and those of immigrant descent" in this country. That is exactly why your fearless leader is on trial now. It is discriminatory, it is uncalled for, it is disgusting and it does not belong in the twenty-first century.

[Skullheadhq]

The euro left had made it's choice

That's the same old argument I told you he would make, all dutch righties do that. They all have the Cookies burnt? I bet the leftists did it thingie...