Why Libertarians Shouldn't Hate Government

[jabarto]

Libertarians are wrong about something? Why I never!

Snarkiness aside, I can't help but roll my eyes when someone says the term "small government". "Small government", in the overwhelming majoruty of cases, means cutting social programs designed to help the underprivileged, because god forbid I should be forced to help those shifty blacks poors.

[Furunculus]

hah, i love the idea of smaller government (than we have got in the UK already), because i consider it frankly immoral that the government should wish to waste north of 45% of GDP on its business.

so yes, i want less government, and i'll continue to whine about until the impossible happens and government spending wastes no more than 1/3 of annual GDP.

[Strike For The South]

Libertarians are wrong about something? Why I never!

Snarkiness aside, I can't help but roll my eyes when someone says the term "small government". "Small government", in the overwhelming majoruty of cases, means cutting social programs designed to help the underprivileged, because god forbid I should be forced to help those shifty blacks poors.

Because there is clearly a correlation with wanting to cut uneeded funding and a desire to bring retroactive Jim Crow back.

I swear these n00bs couldn't spell cat if you spotted them the c and the a.

[Louis VI the Fat]

2. To shrink government, you need to love government. Most liberals believe deeply in government. As a result, they sit on school boards, city councils, and regional planning boards. They become expert at navigating through the bureaucracy and know which bureaucratic levers to pull to make their policy vision reality.

5. Nobody will care what you know until they know you care. Many voters today may indeed want smaller government, but what they want most of all is competent government. In addition to pointing out the flaws of government, free-marketers also need to communicate a genuine interest in the effective performance of the important duties of government.






My vote goes to numbers two and five.

[Major Robert Dump]

Libertarians are wrong about something? Why I never!

Snarkiness aside, I can't help but roll my eyes when someone says the term "small government". "Small government", in the overwhelming majoruty of cases, means cutting social programs designed to help the underprivileged, because god forbid I should be forced to help those shifty blacks poors.

You equate someone's desire for less intrusive government as wanting to see poor people, i.e. blacks, suffer. This is comical. You do realize that by raw numbers there are more white people below the poverty line than blacks, right?

So if you are going to accuse me of hating someone: get it right! I hate poor people, and wish to see them suffer. It has nothing to do with race. I happen to LOVE rich black people.

In all seriousness, though, if the first programs to suffer are social assistance programs then in most cases I happen to disagreee with those cuts as the cuts can usually come from somewhere else. It nonetheless still makes me want less government intrusion, and it is not my fault if a politician makes those cuts in the wrong place, and it in no way makes me a racist.

Just out of curiosity, are you for or against businesses who get bailout money having to limit bonuses and adhere to more stringent regulation? I have a feeling you are, as am I. But I am also for having people who receive government assistance in the form of money and food stamps having to take drug tests and be subject to frequent visits by social workers to make sure they are not drunks ..... I have a feeling you are not.

[jabarto]

Relax guys. I'm not calling you out personally, but you're pretty naive if you think race isn't a factor in a lot of people's judgment on this issue.

So if you are going to accuse me of hating someone: get it right! I hate poor people, and wish to see them suffer. It has nothing to do with race. I happen to LOVE rich black people.

You're kidding, but this attitude is very prevalent throughout American history; the poor have always been treated with the utmost contempt in this society. We see them as slackers because we buy into the quaint notion that hard work alone is enough to bring success. It's not.

But I am also for having people who receive government assistance in the form of money and food stamps having to take drug tests and be subject to frequent visits by social workers to make sure they are not drunks ..... I have a feeling you are not.

You are correct. Such requirements will just make it even harder to break out of poverty, as substance abuse is most prevalent among the lower class.

[Furunculus]

no, i don't accept that a desire for small government = closet racist

[CountArach]

no, i don't accept that a desire for small government = closet racist

Actually if I read jabarto correctly he seems to be saying that for some people it is one fact amongst others, and this isn't too hard to imagine. Think of the lower-middle class white man trying to send his kids to college seeing a black child sent on a scholarship that his children don't have access to. It isn't hard to imagine how you can see this leading to racism and simultaneously to a desire to do away with these scholarship grants, and thus smaller government.

Oh yes the evil white man holding the poor single black mother down. Meanwhile back in reality...

https://www.msu.edu/user/skourtes/myths.html

The data you quoted is in raw figures, which is not at all the correct data set to use when you have a disparity in numbers (There are far more whites than blacks, thus biasing the data). Further you can't compare "White families" with "Black single mothers" because you also have a disparity in income potential as there is only one working adult compared to two. If you look at the 2007 census data it shows that 24.5% of blacks are below the poverty line, compared to 10.5% of whites and 12.5% overall.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Actually if I read jabarto correctly he seems to be saying that for some people it is one fact amongst others, and this isn't too hard to imagine.

You could pick anything and say that for some people it is one factor amongst others. So, instead of the wording itself being significant, it is the fact that he picked that factor. He implied that it was a very significant factor.

In reality, it has more to do with selfishness or the idea that the poor are undeserving. Or that the government can't afford it, or any number of reasons. That's for the arguments against welfare etc specifically, many people are against big government in many areas, such as liberals who are against the defense budget.

[Kralizec]

How big is the libertarian movement in the USA, anyway? I always had the impression that they were a tiny, almost irrelevant faction in the Republican party.

The data you quoted is in raw figures, which is not at all the correct data set to use when you have a disparity in numbers (There are far more whites than blacks, thus biasing the data). Further you can't compare "White families" with "Black single mothers" because you also have a disparity in income potential as there is only one working adult compared to two. If you look at the 2007 census data it shows that 24.5% of blacks are below the poverty line, compared to 10.5% of whites and 12.5% overall.

That's only relevant if your aim is to specifically ensure that the % of poor people is equal in each ethnicity, rather than combat poverty regardless of color

[CountArach]

That's only relevant if your aim is to specifically ensure that the % of poor people is equal in each ethnicity, rather than combat poverty regardless of color

Yes, but I was disputing the link that SFTS posted. Poverty needs to be fought amongst all human beings.

[jabarto]

Actually if I read jabarto correctly he seems to be saying that for some people it is one fact amongst others, and this isn't too hard to imagine. Think of the lower-middle class white man trying to send his kids to college seeing a black child sent on a scholarship that his children don't have access to. It isn't hard to imagine how you can see this leading to racism and simultaneously to a desire to do away with these scholarship grants, and thus smaller government.

Also, I think there's a slight misunderstanding here. I say that small government can - and, I would go so far to say, sometimes does - have racial implications because, as I noted above, it usually entails curtailing spending on programs that would help the lower classes (and guess which class typically has the most minorities?). If a government can simultaneously be small and support strong social safety nets, well, I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I'm left to wonder; what is meant by "small government" if not one that doesn't provide those services?

[Beskar]

If a government can simultaneously be small and support strong social safety nets, well, I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I'm left to wonder; what is meant by "small government" if not one that doesn't provide those services?

Same question as "what does it mean by 'big government'".

In short "big government" is a term just thrown about by people who think they know what they are talking about and look clever by doing it. They blame all their problems on this nefarious and imaginary 'big government' without a clue to what they are thinking they are implying.

So what is big government?

To make it even easier, I will look to wikipedia since I am lazy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_government

Don't worry, you don't have to read it, I will put the points here.

generally used by political conservatives, laissez-faire advocates or libertarians to describe a government which they consider to be excessively large, corrupt and inefficient, or inappropriately involved in certain areas of public policy.

Let's break this down:
1) Excessively large
2) Corrupt
3) Inefficient
4) Inappropriately involved in certain areas of public policy.


1) Well, the term is "big government" and the description is "excessively large", it sounds like a reasonable definition. Persumingly this just means that Civil Servant numbers should be cut as 3-4 people are doing the job of 1. But wouldn't that just mean it is the same as point 3? I don't think this would be an adequate definition.

2) Corrupt - that would be "Corrupt Government" wouldn't it? I am just going to throw this definition away.

3) Pretty much same as number 1, It would just be an "Inefficent Government" as that would be a label people can agree with. Government employment shouldn't really be a factor in the term "big" as would it still be classed as big government if it was infact very efficient?

4) Inappropriately involved in certain areas of public policy is a possible contender for "Big Government". However, the problem lies in "what is inappropriate involvement" ? For now, we will stick with this definition.

Conclusion: Throw away definitions 1, 2 and 3. Keep 4.

The reason for this is because points 1 and 3 is pretty much the same thing. It hold fundamental flaws in the definition, as employment size shouldn't be a factor in the terms of the government in this context. Does this mean that the United States is "massively large big government" than lets say, "large government" in the United Kingdom, because it requires far more employees to run than United Kingdom? It is just best to extract this point from the definition and classify it under whether or not they are efficient.

Point 2 is based on corruption. Corruption has nothing to do with its size, as it could still be "very small" by other definitions and still be corrupt. Thus, it is best to cast away this definition.

This leaves point 4, which is probably an ideological point of view, if any. What areas should government be in? Also, in what ways would government be big in this regard? In the amount of areas covered by law/regulation? The amount of laws full stop? Devotion of government in an area? Is a nationalised industry actually part of big government, as a nationalised industry doesn't have require government to actually be involved in it? This is the area that needs to be addressed.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Also, I think there's a slight misunderstanding here. I say that small government can - and, I would go so far to say, sometimes does - have racial implications because, as I noted above, it usually entails curtailing spending on programs that would help the lower classes (and guess which class typically has the most minorities?). If a government can simultaneously be small and support strong social safety nets, well, I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I'm left to wonder; what is meant by "small government" if not one that doesn't provide those services?

One that doesn't regulate businesses as the feds used to regulate trucking and airline industries.

One that doesn't wage a full on war on drugs.

One that doesn't give military equipment and vehicles to police and encourage them to be used against non-violent civilians in the dead of night.

One that doesn't spy or wiretap Americans without warrants.

One that doesn't have an excess of committees and commissions appointed to study any number of things.

One that doesn't pass a lot of laws saying what you can and can't do with your property.

One that doesn't authorize agencies to declare certain substances illegal or controlled under their own authority.

One that doesn't allow and encourage the seizing of goods from people not convicted or even charged with a crime.

One that doesn't provide large subsidies to certain businesses that distort the free market.

One that doesn't have lawmakers jetting around in military airplanes to 'fact-finding' missions on tropical islands.

One that doesn't have tens of thousands of felonies, making each citizen a felon three times a day, where any prosecutor can find a way to send you to jail.

One that doesn't encourage prosecutors to throw the book at people who violated some obscure legalistic law where no-one is harmed or victimized or wants them arrested.

One that doesn't have huge amounts of pork written into Congressional bills.

One that doesn't send out agents to meet gun-store owners, manufacture a crime, then arrest the store owner.

One that doesn't send federal agents to break into stores selling a leaf people can burn like a cigarette.

One that doesn't have agencies that unilaterally declare human respiratory by-products are pollutants.

One that doesn't have agencies that publish many books containing all the regulations written by the agency that are given force of law.

One that doesn't use the commerce clause to prohibit and regulate a huge number of activities that have nothing to do with what the original phrase meant, like prohibiting guns near school zones.

One that doesn't prohibit free speech.

I could go on. It's stupid to say people who want small government are racist; that only shows a great lack of knowledge.

CR

[Strike For The South]

Relax guys. I'm not calling you out personally, but you're pretty naive if you think race isn't a factor in a lot of people's judgment on this issue.
.

Oh yes the evil white man holding the poor single black mother down. Meanwhile back in reality...

The Census Bureau's most recent annual poverty report found that urban black mothers constitute less than one out of six of all poor households. Rural white families account for more--one out of five. White surburban families accountfor even more--one out of four.

https://www.msu.edu/user/skourtes/myths.html

[Major Robert Dump]

Relax guys. I'm not calling you out personally, but you're pretty naive if you think race isn't a factor in a lot of people's judgment on this issue.



You're kidding, but this attitude is very prevalent throughout American history; the poor have always been treated with the utmost contempt in this society. We see them as slackers because we buy into the quaint notion that hard work alone is enough to bring success. It's not.



You are correct. Such requirements will just make it even harder to break out of poverty, as substance abuse is most prevalent among the lower class.

Then that is where we disagree. I have all the empathy in the world for poor people, as I used to be one and I am very well aware that hard work has less to do with success than family wealth in a lot of cases.

However, someone's drug problem and other bad habits should preclude any form of social assistance without also including REHAB efforts. Throwing money at people who dig themselves into a hole with substance abuse does nothing to help them and just makes things worse. They need a wake-up call, and cutting off the tit can do it. There are plenty of successful alcoholics and drug users, and the reason a poor addict is poor is quite often because he/she is an addict. Inner city and rural america is still reeling from the no-questions-asked welfare tit from the 70s and 80s where the more kids you popped out the more money you got, and which penalized your benefits for having an able-bodied adult male in the home.