OT Latin linguists?

**anubis88** · 01-30-2010, 22:34

I have a bit of topic question for the Latin linguists...

Why are the roman provinces known like:
Provinciae Sicilia
Priovinciae Sardinia and Corsica?

Why is there the -ae? Shouldn't it be Provincia Sicilia? I understand the Sardinia and corsica part since it's in plural, but Sicilia is singular

**Tiberius Gracchus** · 01-30-2010, 23:16

Originally Posted by anubis88

I have a bit of topic question for the Latin linguists...

Why is there the -ae? Shouldn't it be Provincia Sicilia? I understand the Sardinia and corsica part since it's in plural, but Sicilia is singular

I think "-ae" in this context is not plural but genitive (it's the same form). E.g. "proconsul provinciae siciliae" means Proconsul of the Province Sicila.

**anubis88** · 01-30-2010, 23:23

Originally Posted by Tiberius Gracchus

I think "-ae" in this context is not plural but genitive (it's the same form). E.g. "proconsul provinciae siciliae" means Proconsul of the Province Sicila.

Sorry but that does not make much sense. Why would Provincia be in the Genitive? It's clearly nominative... Or i'm to sleepy to think straight

**Tiberius Gracchus** · 01-30-2010, 23:28

Originally Posted by anubis88

Sorry but that does not make much sense. Why would Provincia be in the Genitive? It's clearly nominative... Or i'm to sleepy to think straight

Sorry, I just assumed you may have referred to one of these provincial governor traits. In what context is it used in your example, then?

**anubis88** · 01-30-2010, 23:33

Actually you may have a point, i'm talking about the trait, however it clearly says Provinciae sicilia. And it should IMHO either say ProvinciA SiciliA, or ProvinciAE SiciliAE.
In the game provinciae Sicilia would actually mean provinces of Sicily, while there was only one province of Sicily. So i think it should be Provincia Sicilia. Well i'm going to sleep now, perhaps tommorow i will see my mistake

**abou** · 01-30-2010, 23:51

Originally Posted by Tiberius Gracchus

Well, I may be wrong but as fas as I remember there is a "grammatical gender" and a "natural gender". "Poeta" then would be of masculine natural gender but of feminine grammatical gender. The adjective always follows the natural gender.

These discrepancies may be rare but they also exist in other languages. In German for example the noun "Mädchen" (=girl) is grammatically neuter while girls are of course of feminine natural gender - even in Germany ;-)

What would you say if I told you that Latin was my second minor in undergrad and that is the first time I've heard of natural and grammatical gender?

Originally Posted by anubis88

I have a bit of topic question for the Latin linguists...

Why are the roman provinces known like:
Provinciae Sicilia
Priovinciae Sardinia and Corsica?

Why is there the -ae? Shouldn't it be Provincia Sicilia? I understand the Sardinia and corsica part since it's in plural, but Sicilia is singular

If those are from our traits, it seems we flubbed and forgot to put the province names in the genitive. For example, it should be X Provinciae Siciliae - X of the Province of Sicily. I'd wait to hear from the Roman team itself though as they came up with the traits.

**Mulceber** · 01-30-2010, 23:58

What would you say if I told you that Latin was my second minor in undergrad and that is the first time I've heard of natural and grammatical gender?

I'm majoring in it, and I agree - there isn't any "rule" about grammatical vs. natural gender. It's just always been naturally understood in most European languages that just because a noun has a masculine or feminine gender does not necessarily mean the object associated with that noun has that gender - or any gender at all for that matter. It's not something that linguists have sought to explain, as far as I know, because it's just always been considered a given.

As far as I know "provinciae sicilia" is not a grammatically correct form. "Provinces of Sicily" would also be "provinciae siciliae" in Latin. "sicilia" can only be nominative, vocative or ablative. At the moment I can't think of an construction/combination of "provinciae" and "sicilia" which would make any sense.

Well, theoretically, "Provinciae Sicilia" could mean "the Provinces from Sicily," but I think the Romans would consider that a very odd way to phrase it. As far as I can tell, it's really just a gaff on the part of the modders - one of very few. The only other one I can think of is the phrase "Quisque Est Barbarus Alio" which should be "Quisque est Barbarus Alii." -M

**Tiberius Gracchus** · 01-31-2010, 00:13

Originally Posted by abou

What would you say if I told you that Latin was my second minor in undergrad and that is the first time I've heard of natural and grammatical gender?

I'm sure that you know way more of Latin than I do. I just had it in school for seven years but I haven't learnt any latin since about 1994. But I'm quite sure this is what they teached us in Latin classes.

I don't know where you studied Latin but maybe they teach some different things in different countries?

Just did a quick Google search. I know that proof based on Wikipedia is not really any proof but it seems those poeple writing for Wikipedia have heard of natural and grammatical gender:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammat...natural_gender

There also seem to be some scientific articles concerning natural and grammatical gender:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl..._ylo=&as_vis=0
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...-8&oi=scholart
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl..._ylo=&as_vis=0

**Tiberius Gracchus** · 01-30-2010, 23:57

Originally Posted by anubis88

And it should IMHO either say ProvinciA SiciliA, or ProvinciAE SiciliAE.

You're right. That's what I think, too.

Originally Posted by anubis88

In the game provinciae Sicilia would actually mean provinces of Sicily, while there was only one province of Sicily.

As far as I know "provinciae sicilia" is not a grammatically correct form. "Provinces of Sicily" would also be "provinciae siciliae" in Latin. "sicilia" can only be nominative, vocative or ablative. At the moment I can't think of an construction/combination of "provinciae" and "sicilia" which would make any sense.

**anubis88** · 01-31-2010, 09:31

Originally Posted by Tiberius Gracchus

You're right. That's what I think, too.

As far as I know "provinciae sicilia" is not a grammatically correct form. "Provinces of Sicily" would also be "provinciae siciliae" in Latin. "sicilia" can only be nominative, vocative or ablative. At the moment I can't think of an construction/combination of "provinciae" and "sicilia" which would make any sense.

Yeah i agree, it's not a correct form. Scratch what i've written. Provinciae Sicilia doesn't not make sense in any way. It's cleary a bug