Archery animations

[Tuuvi]

I was just watching the EB video on the the new animations for EB II and I am a little worried about the accuracy of the new animations for the archers. The problem is the archers jerk their hands back when shooting. As I understand it this is bad form and reduces accuracy. Now I will admit I've just watched some videos of people shooting heavier poundage bows (as the EB team probably already knows bows used for war have much heavier draw weights than bows used for hunting) and sometimes they do jerk their hands a little bit, because shooting a heavy bow puts a lot of strain on archer's hand, wrist, back, etc. Here is a pretty good video demonstrating proper shooting technique. The first few minutes are about bow tuning; the actual shooting starts at about 3:30.



Since EB is about warfare and not hunting I also found this cool video showing people shooting heavy weight English longbows.



I hope this helps the EB team in making EB II the best, most historically accurate mod ever

[Tretii]

Those heavy English bows look like proper killing machines. Nice videos.

[Macilrille]

They were- despite being somewhat overrated in myth since the middle ages, the English longbows were... nasty.

[seienchin]

Wow, nice videos, but the guy in the first one seems to be heavily influenced by japanese kyudo. Both eyes open, waiting and aiming and then release a constant strain of arrows.
Did europeans use the same technick?^^
I remember reading about a heavy dispute between a samurai and a european about why europeans only focus with one eye in the 16century.

[antisocialmunky]

There was a history channel special with an expert longbow user. Unlike these videos, he demonstrated rapid fire with high parabolic arcs. It was rather elegant actually since it was a fully body draw to aim to release in a single motion. He was firing an arrow every 5 seconds. And the thing was his bow was a 175lb siege bow.

[Tuuvi]

Wow, nice videos, but the guy in the first one seems to be heavily influenced by japanese kyudo. Both eyes open, waiting and aiming and then release a constant strain of arrows.
Did europeans use the same technick?^^
I remember reading about a heavy dispute between a samurai and a european about why europeans only focus with one eye in the 16century.

hhhmmm I'm not positive but I think the shooting technique demonstrated in the first video is pretty universal. I also shoot with both eyes open and I know nothing of japanese kyudo.

[Ibrahim]

Wow, nice videos, but the guy in the first one seems to be heavily influenced by japanese kyudo. Both eyes open, waiting and aiming and then release a constant strain of arrows.
Did europeans use the same technick?^^
I remember reading about a heavy dispute between a samurai and a european about why europeans only focus with one eye in the 16century.

perhaps they were arguing about muskets and not bows? or is it explicitly stated?

[oudysseos]

I was really impressed by the penetration in the second video until I realized that they were standing very close to their targets.

[antisocialmunky]

I can't seem to find the history channel clip of the expert longbowman. If anyone can find a video of that or someone firing a 150+lb bow, please post it. It really is epic.

[ziegenpeter]

I still don't see what this thread has to do with archery animation...?

[Tuuvi]

I still don't see what this thread has to do with archery animation...?

If you read the text in my first post, you would know...

I made this thread because I think the new archer animations for EB are incorrect and I wanted to let the team know. I posted those videos because I thought the EB team would want to see some sources.

[Cute Wolf]

If you read the text in my first post, you would know...

I made this thread because I think the new archer animations for EB are incorrect and I wanted to let the team know. I posted those videos because I thought the EB team would want to see some sources.

But as far as I cab recognize.... the archery techniques that used on that video was definitely asian, not only japan, but that was closer to asian styled archery arts. that way they draw bows was definitely used for drawing bamboo / composite bows, with direct pull, wait, and shot. AFAIK, self bows used in europe (and mediterranians) will quickly break if you try to use direct pulls. so withdrawing closer to the body first, and quickly relase the arrow. Waiting and aiming for too long will compromise with the strength on your self bow.

[Tuuvi]

But as far as I cab recognize.... the archery techniques that used on that video was definitely asian, not only japan, but that was closer to asian styled archery arts. that way they draw bows was definitely used for drawing bamboo / composite bows, with direct pull, wait, and shot. AFAIK, self bows used in europe (and mediterranians) will quickly break if you try to use direct pulls. so withdrawing closer to the body first, and quickly relase the arrow. Waiting and aiming for too long will compromise with the strength on your self bow.

I didn't know that the shooting style used in the first video was asian. As I said before I shoot the same way and I haven't studied asian archery technique. The problem I find with the EB animations is not how they draw the bow but with the release and follow through. If you watch the EB video on the new animations the archers make a jerking motion with their arm and hand when releasing the arrow. This isn't necessary and is bad form. I learned that when releasing the arrow you want to hold your position until the arrow hits the target, because any sudden movements you make after shooting could mess up your aim. I disagree with you when it comes to shooting and self bows. If a self-bow is properly made and tillered it is in little danger of breaking as long as it is taken good care of. The only way you could break such a bow by shooting is if it is drawn farther than it was tillered to draw.

I hope I'm not being nitpicky, I was just watching the video in the thread Cute Wolf started and as an archer I noticed that the animations weren't correct so I thought I would point that out to the EB team.

[Cute Wolf]

Your "correction" was completely right if we talk about steppe / eastern archers armed with composite bows. But when we talk about western self-bows archers (as the Toxotai in da video), the Jerking movement was done to reduce the strains they put on the self bows.

[Tuuvi]

Well I disagree with you there. Like I said before a self bow that is properly made and tillered isn't going to break very easily and no change in shooting style is needed to reduce strain. The only way you could damage a self bow while shooting is if you over draw the bow,and even then the bow is more likely to take a massive set before it breaks. Watch the second video and you will see that their shooting technique isn't a whole lot different from the guy in the first video. The bows they are shooting in the second video are self-bows.

[-Praetor-]

The EB team appreciates very much your suggestions.

Since I'm partly in charge of the animations department, I would like to let you know that I made some of the archery animations. We don't have any accurate description, other than sporadic paintings and other visual reference, on how archery was practiced on the 3rd C. BC. So, while your suggestion is accurate for XX or even XV C. AD archery, it might not be entirely true for ancient warfare. However, we may want to change it in the future, since your theory makes sense, but it would be ideal to see vase paintings of the epoch, depicting the exact moment of release, to see whether the archer maintains his hand precisely on the position of the draw, or if he moves it after release.

If there aren't, it would be quite reckless to call our current animation as "incorrect".

We won't modify this animation in the first release. We've been working on other animations at the minute, and going back to correct things already made will put us behind schedule. But if we see evidence that isn't anachronistic for our context, we will definitively change it on future releases.

Thanks!

[ziegenpeter]

it would be ideal to see vase paintings of the epoch, depicting the exact moment of release, to see whether the archer maintains his hand precisely on the position of the draw, or if he moves it after release.

Setting aside the discussion about the use and accuracy of pictorial representation for archeology, reenactment and so on in general, I still wonder whether you could really trust an image in that specific case. I mean this is imho something only an expert would recognize (until this thread I didn't even know about these different shooting techniques) and even though an artist of the antiquity might be much closer to poeple who use bow&arrow than an average person of today's western culture, I still have doubts, if only based on common sense, that we can reconstruct the exact movement of antiquity's archery by using vase paintings.

[Tuuvi]

The EB team appreciates very much your suggestions.

Since I'm partly in charge of the animations department, I would like to let you know that I made some of the archery animations. We don't have any accurate description, other than sporadic paintings and other visual reference, on how archery was practiced on the 3rd C. BC. So, while your suggestion is accurate for XX or even XV C. AD archery, it might not be entirely true for ancient warfare. However, we may want to change it in the future, since your theory makes sense, but it would be ideal to see vase paintings of the epoch, depicting the exact moment of release, to see whether the archer maintains his hand precisely on the position of the draw, or if he moves it after release.

If there aren't, it would be quite reckless to call our current animation as "incorrect".

We won't modify this animation in the first release. We've been working on other animations at the minute, and going back to correct things already made will put us behind schedule. But if we see evidence that isn't anachronistic for our context, we will definitively change it on future releases.

Thanks!

Yea I admit I based my criticism on the assumption that archery form hasn't changed much over time. I'm glad that this thread was helpful to the team, even if only a little bit.

[geala]

I think it is not possible to judge the position of the hand pre and after release from vase pictures. It had to be a comic like set of pictures to get to a good conclusion. I studied a lot of ancient Greek paintings (but mostly from classical time) with bow pictures and never saw one that gives a clear hint. What is evident is that the Greeks had another shooting style than that of the medieval western world. The arrows were mostly shot from the right side of the bow, not the left and two fingers or often thumb and finger were used to draw, however I never saw a thumb ring or a forearm protection. When you shoot from the right, no forearm protection is needed indeed. Some forearm protections are found in excavations, but they come from the Mycenean period as far as I know.

The second video with the English war bows is very interesting. At the beginning it shows clearly the near total failure to penetrate even 1,2 mm of the steel panel (which I presume was in addition also not overhardened like the better 15th c. war armors). However it is only a 100 lbs bow and the fact that we have some (very few) reliable stories about penetration of knightly armor is another argument that the 15th c. war bow had pull weights between 120 and 170 lbs, with the most frequent weight near150 lbs.

[-Praetor-]

Having a vase from the IIIrd C. BC showing an archer drawing a bow is by no means a military manual given to a III C. BC. soldier instructing him how a draw should be made. But it's a piece of evidence that is by far more accurate than anything else we can reconstruct based on today's practices.

For instance, thanks to such evidence we know that western archery made their pull to their chest and not to their cheek. That is represented on our animations, and it's something completely different to today's archery.

What I'm saying is that current archery techniques are completely anachronistic to classical archery, and while today's technique have merit in terms of efficiency, our animations can't be based upon them.

I still wonder whether you could really trust an image in that specific case.

Well, we (at least me) don't trust them. But it's the best we've got.

[Paltmull]

@ -Praetor-

I don't really understand. Do ancient vase paintings and such suggest that archers would do a "jerking hand motion" upon releasing the arrow? Or are you simply saying that since there isn't any proof of such a tecnique not being used, it can't be called incorrect to have it in EB? Because if so, wouldn't it make more sense to first of all base the animations on what you do know, and then base the parts you don't know anything about on what seems most logical? And since there doesn't seem to to be any point at all in jerking your hand when shooting, it's probably more likely that ancient archers would not do that. Right? :)

Or have I misunderstood something?

[-Praetor-]

@ -Praetor-

I don't really understand. Do ancient vase paintings and such suggest that archers would do a "jerking hand motion" upon releasing the arrow?

No.

Or are you simply saying that since there isn't any proof of such a tecnique not being used, it can't be called incorrect to have it in EB?

No, we're using it because that's the natural motion of the upper body when you accumulate tension and you release it suddenly.

BTW, that's precisely the argument that I'm using against the opposite: There's no evidence of the technique of standing still after a shot was used in old times, so we can't use it on EB with certainty.

[Paltmull]

Oh.

[-Praetor-]

But as I say, nothing is carved in stone. If it isn't much work, we can change it, provided the medicine is better than the sickness.

[Tuuvi]

No, we're using it because that's the natural motion of the upper body when you accumulate tension and you release it suddenly.

I'm not so sure this applies when shooting a bow. I've never experienced that kind of motion or had to suppress it while shooting. What I've experienced is that maintaining good follow through doesn't take a lot of physical effort, just knowing and remembering is enough. Now you could say it's because I'm used to shooting that way, but I don't think this is the case. Today I tried shooting shooting right handed (I'm left handed) and I don't remember feeling any sort of jerking sensation in my right arm or shoulder upon release. I could be wrong though, I'll have to pay more attention to my physical movements next time I'm shooting to know for sure.

[antisocialmunky]

I don't think either of you is wrong. It probably depends on the person and equipment used and other conditions(fatigue most likely):

Compare this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVZC...ayer_embedded#

To some of these releases from 3 different people taken over a period of 1 afternoon distance shooting and target shooting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsbp...eature=related

You'll notice that even the same person has variation on the releases. The only one that is close to consistently 'jerky' is the guy with the massive 125lber. You have a variety of releases. You have one where the hand travels with the string, you have one where the guy releases laterally and one where the hand jerks. All these things happen to different degrees in each shot.

So really the correct solution would be to have many diifferent animations for different bow draw strengths but I suspect that would be a lot of effort.

Looks good non-the less.

ps. The guy in #1 kinda has a woosy bow compared to the above.

[Tuuvi]

The video you posted and the second video I posted are both from the same people. Yes sometimes they do jerk a little bit, but in my humble opinion the EB animations are a little over the top.

So really the correct solution would be to have many diifferent animations for different bow draw strengths but I suspect that would be a lot of effort.

What the EB team could do is have two different animations: one for cultures that have a tradition in archery warfare, and an animation for cultures that don't. As I understand it cultures that had an archery warfare tradition would have bows made specifically for war; these bows would have had high draw weights like the ones in the longbow videos you and I posted. Archers in other cultures were mostly hunters levyed into temporary military service and so would have been carrying their hunting bows which had lower draw weights.

[antisocialmunky]

How about less Anglo-Centric stuff?

Turkish Thumb Release as opposed to the semi-jerky 2/3 finger release used on those heavier LBows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNK-6Hn0uiw

For Show Rapid Fire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVYy...eature=related

Different archery animations for different groups would be nice. :)

[-Praetor-]

We currently have got plenty archery animations:

1º) Taking arrows from left sided quiver
2º) Taking arrows from right sided quiver
3º) Taking arrows from the quiver on the back

Not counting other variations like:

A) Draw to the chest
B) Draw to the cheek

And you want to add another variable such as different jerking motions?

[paullus]

We do have different archer animations for different cultures.