Archery animations

[-Praetor-]

The EB team appreciates very much your suggestions.

Since I'm partly in charge of the animations department, I would like to let you know that I made some of the archery animations. We don't have any accurate description, other than sporadic paintings and other visual reference, on how archery was practiced on the 3rd C. BC. So, while your suggestion is accurate for XX or even XV C. AD archery, it might not be entirely true for ancient warfare. However, we may want to change it in the future, since your theory makes sense, but it would be ideal to see vase paintings of the epoch, depicting the exact moment of release, to see whether the archer maintains his hand precisely on the position of the draw, or if he moves it after release.

If there aren't, it would be quite reckless to call our current animation as "incorrect".

We won't modify this animation in the first release. We've been working on other animations at the minute, and going back to correct things already made will put us behind schedule. But if we see evidence that isn't anachronistic for our context, we will definitively change it on future releases.

Thanks!

[ziegenpeter]

it would be ideal to see vase paintings of the epoch, depicting the exact moment of release, to see whether the archer maintains his hand precisely on the position of the draw, or if he moves it after release.

Setting aside the discussion about the use and accuracy of pictorial representation for archeology, reenactment and so on in general, I still wonder whether you could really trust an image in that specific case. I mean this is imho something only an expert would recognize (until this thread I didn't even know about these different shooting techniques) and even though an artist of the antiquity might be much closer to poeple who use bow&arrow than an average person of today's western culture, I still have doubts, if only based on common sense, that we can reconstruct the exact movement of antiquity's archery by using vase paintings.

[Tuuvi]

The EB team appreciates very much your suggestions.

Since I'm partly in charge of the animations department, I would like to let you know that I made some of the archery animations. We don't have any accurate description, other than sporadic paintings and other visual reference, on how archery was practiced on the 3rd C. BC. So, while your suggestion is accurate for XX or even XV C. AD archery, it might not be entirely true for ancient warfare. However, we may want to change it in the future, since your theory makes sense, but it would be ideal to see vase paintings of the epoch, depicting the exact moment of release, to see whether the archer maintains his hand precisely on the position of the draw, or if he moves it after release.

If there aren't, it would be quite reckless to call our current animation as "incorrect".

We won't modify this animation in the first release. We've been working on other animations at the minute, and going back to correct things already made will put us behind schedule. But if we see evidence that isn't anachronistic for our context, we will definitively change it on future releases.

Thanks!

Yea I admit I based my criticism on the assumption that archery form hasn't changed much over time. I'm glad that this thread was helpful to the team, even if only a little bit.

[geala]

I think it is not possible to judge the position of the hand pre and after release from vase pictures. It had to be a comic like set of pictures to get to a good conclusion. I studied a lot of ancient Greek paintings (but mostly from classical time) with bow pictures and never saw one that gives a clear hint. What is evident is that the Greeks had another shooting style than that of the medieval western world. The arrows were mostly shot from the right side of the bow, not the left and two fingers or often thumb and finger were used to draw, however I never saw a thumb ring or a forearm protection. When you shoot from the right, no forearm protection is needed indeed. Some forearm protections are found in excavations, but they come from the Mycenean period as far as I know.

The second video with the English war bows is very interesting. At the beginning it shows clearly the near total failure to penetrate even 1,2 mm of the steel panel (which I presume was in addition also not overhardened like the better 15th c. war armors). However it is only a 100 lbs bow and the fact that we have some (very few) reliable stories about penetration of knightly armor is another argument that the 15th c. war bow had pull weights between 120 and 170 lbs, with the most frequent weight near150 lbs.

[-Praetor-]

Having a vase from the IIIrd C. BC showing an archer drawing a bow is by no means a military manual given to a III C. BC. soldier instructing him how a draw should be made. But it's a piece of evidence that is by far more accurate than anything else we can reconstruct based on today's practices.

For instance, thanks to such evidence we know that western archery made their pull to their chest and not to their cheek. That is represented on our animations, and it's something completely different to today's archery.

What I'm saying is that current archery techniques are completely anachronistic to classical archery, and while today's technique have merit in terms of efficiency, our animations can't be based upon them.

I still wonder whether you could really trust an image in that specific case.

Well, we (at least me) don't trust them. But it's the best we've got.

[Paltmull]

@ -Praetor-

I don't really understand. Do ancient vase paintings and such suggest that archers would do a "jerking hand motion" upon releasing the arrow? Or are you simply saying that since there isn't any proof of such a tecnique not being used, it can't be called incorrect to have it in EB? Because if so, wouldn't it make more sense to first of all base the animations on what you do know, and then base the parts you don't know anything about on what seems most logical? And since there doesn't seem to to be any point at all in jerking your hand when shooting, it's probably more likely that ancient archers would not do that. Right? :)

Or have I misunderstood something?

[-Praetor-]

@ -Praetor-

I don't really understand. Do ancient vase paintings and such suggest that archers would do a "jerking hand motion" upon releasing the arrow?

No.

Or are you simply saying that since there isn't any proof of such a tecnique not being used, it can't be called incorrect to have it in EB?

No, we're using it because that's the natural motion of the upper body when you accumulate tension and you release it suddenly.

BTW, that's precisely the argument that I'm using against the opposite: There's no evidence of the technique of standing still after a shot was used in old times, so we can't use it on EB with certainty.

[Paltmull]

Oh.

[Tuuvi]

No, we're using it because that's the natural motion of the upper body when you accumulate tension and you release it suddenly.

I'm not so sure this applies when shooting a bow. I've never experienced that kind of motion or had to suppress it while shooting. What I've experienced is that maintaining good follow through doesn't take a lot of physical effort, just knowing and remembering is enough. Now you could say it's because I'm used to shooting that way, but I don't think this is the case. Today I tried shooting shooting right handed (I'm left handed) and I don't remember feeling any sort of jerking sensation in my right arm or shoulder upon release. I could be wrong though, I'll have to pay more attention to my physical movements next time I'm shooting to know for sure.