It can't be used legally it concerns private information of citizens, their address, where they work, it was illegally obtained, now it isn't about law but about the money of course, so privacy laws step aside.
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
It can't be used legally it concerns private information of citizens, their address, where they work, it was illegally obtained, now it isn't about law but about the money of course, so privacy laws step aside.
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Do you support anti-terrorism laws by any chance, Frags?Originally Posted by Fragony
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
This is where the problem of trying to legislate everything comes into difficulty, but sadly few in power appear to have either the will or the inclination to use common sense.
Information that details off shore accounts is not going to impact on the law abiding, as the offshore accounts are mostly if not all breaking the law; for laws to defend law breakers is perverse. If such issues could be reviewed by Judges(?) which would allow for sorting out potentially complex situations; if this was the case then there would not be the need to have laws to cover every potential eventuality in the first place.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Offshore assets are required to be reported to the tax agency anyway, at least it is here. So, if you're law abiding the government already knows about the account. The only scenario in which the government would not know about your account already, is if you're a criminal.This is where the problem of trying to legislate everything comes into difficulty, but sadly few in power appear to have either the will or the inclination to use common sense.
Information that details off shore accounts is not going to impact on the law abiding, as the offshore accounts are mostly if not all breaking the law; for laws to defend law breakers is perverse. If such issues could be reviewed by Judges(?) which would allow for sorting out potentially complex situations; if this was the case then there would not be the need to have laws to cover every potential eventuality in the first place.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
They all look pretty much the same but we can't work with that
long beard + jaballah = bad news
Last edited by Fragony; 02-07-2010 at 16:37.
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
It is in no way perverse; it's human rights. It's why we have laws saying the government can't torture you to get information, and that you can't incriminate yourself.This is where the problem of trying to legislate everything comes into difficulty, but sadly few in power appear to have either the will or the inclination to use common sense.
Information that details off shore accounts is not going to impact on the law abiding, as the offshore accounts are mostly if not all breaking the law; for laws to defend law breakers is perverse. If such issues could be reviewed by Judges(?) which would allow for sorting out potentially complex situations; if this was the case then there would not be the need to have laws to cover every potential eventuality in the first place.
These are laws designed to protect all people, and that means criminals as well. Especially since no one is guilty of any law breaking until found so in a court of law.
Is any of what was alleged to have happened illegal in Switzerland? This is in no way a high minded action by the thief; it's greed. But I guess criminal greed in service of the government is good.Any employee should be obligated to report any criminal activity his company is involved in. Buy it, then give the guy a medal.
Loyalty ends when there's a crime involved. And yes, tax evasion is a crime.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
If there is no crime involved then the info is useless, since the government would have it already.
Since they don't, then it must be a crime. He might've broken Switzerlands laws, but what do I care, I don't live there. And they supported Hitler.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Why do you care about Germany enforcing their laws then? Why do you say employees have a duty to report crimes if you don't care about the laws in other countries?
And you missed the point about crime; I was wondering if the actions of the investors is illegal in Switzerland, since it seems like it is illegal in Germany. If what the investors from Germany were doing in Switzerland is not illegal in Switzerland than the actions of the thief selling the data has absolutely nothing to do with reporting the criminal actions of a company as you claimed. It's theft and greed, nothing to do with criminal companies. Companies do not have to comply with the laws of countries they aren't operating in.
Finally, you've lost on a Godwin infraction.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Huh? But if the actions they took in Germany were illegal in Germany then the actions of the companies were illegal in Germany and the guy helped enforce german law, maybe helping to enforce german law is illegal in switzerland but that is not our problem, we're interested in discovering the illegal activities companies conducted here. In this case tax evasion it seems.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Yes, the people were allegedly violating German law. But that should not matter to the employees of the Swiss banks.
As for helping to enforce German law in Switzerland; it seems that would bring up a range of sovereignty issues, namely that Germany is violating Swiss sovereignty.
After all, wouldn't Germany be peeved if we sent FBI agents to arrest a German citizen for some crime he had committed on American soil, without bothering even to notify the German authorities?
It's why we have extradition treaties, since the legal authority of a government agent can not extend beyond that government's borders, without the consent of other governments.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
First of all, we have the same laws here as Germany does, and my own government is doing exactly what germany does.
Secondly, what are these "investors" you're talking about...? When people hide their money away in swiss bank accounts, then it is because of criminal activity. There simply is no other reason. Putting them there isn't a standard procedure, it's to hide money earned from drug sales, bribes, tax evasion, etc etc.
Like I've said a billion times now, if no crime hasa been committed then the data is useless, as the government would know about it already.
One of the pillars of a free market is for everyone to compete under the same rules. Tax evasion screws that up since only a minority do it, and thus gain an extremely unfair advantage. it's actually like a government hand-out, and I honestly can't see why you've suddenly started supporting government handouts, CR...
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
One of the pillars of government is legitimacy, buying stolen goods is a crime.
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Assisting money laundering is also a crime, so Switzerland has no moral high ground whatsoever.
Heck, you know why Haiti is in such a bad state right now? Because their last dictator was able to stash his peoples money away in a Swiss bank instead of using them to build infrastructure and improve their lives.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Isn't a crime in Switzerland to put your money on a bank, stealing personal information is though.
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Tax evasion is a crime in Switzerland as well, apparently only applies to taxes owed to the swiss state though. Switzerland makes great profits using money that should not be in Switzerland in the first place, in other words, they make money by dealing with criminals, dictators and other people who break the laws of other countries all over the world, that effectively also means that Switzerland helps criminals all over the world with conducting their criminal activities, and now they whine that we do the same to them to get our money back...
And I'm supposed to feel bad over this? Don't make me laugh...
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Governments feed dictators all over the world. Stop NGO's like Unicef and Oxam-Noviv as it ends up in Switzerland. The swiss don't pretend to have a higher moral ground, they just keep the money in a safe place, what is wrong with that.
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Nothing wrong with it as long as you didn't break the laws of your own country when you acquired the money or when you deposited it there.
It becomes wrong when you deposit money there that you acquired from illegal activities or money that should be taxed in your country but is instead illegally transferred to a secret account in Switzerland. By making their country a hiding place for all sorts of drug money, blood money etc. they actively aid and abet criminals in our country, something rather close to the sending CIA agents example CR gave. Privacy is fine and dandy but when it's used to molest children, kill people, sell heroin etc. it becomes somewhat awkward, doesn't it?
AFAIK it's fine to deposit money in a swiss bank, you just have to tell the government about it and pay your due taxes from it.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Pfffffffffffft as long as 80% of all foreign aid ends up there I am going to keep buying their chocolate. Now who is the criminal, the boring administrist-worker or the pumpers.
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
I support people being innocent until proven guilty.
You're completely missing the point. Yes, if Germans are hiding money in Swiss banks to avoid taxes they're criminals and they should be caught and punished.Like I've said a billion times now, if no crime hasa been committed then the data is useless, as the government would know about it already.
One of the pillars of a free market is for everyone to compete under the same rules. Tax evasion screws that up since only a minority do it, and thus gain an extremely unfair advantage. it's actually like a government hand-out, and I honestly can't see why you've suddenly started supporting government handouts, CR...
But the government must operate within the law.
Supporting a lawful government and demanding that all the actions of a government are legal is in no way supporting criminals.
It's called supporting human rights. And that means demanding the government act appropriately at all times, even when they are pursuing criminals we don't like. Or do you think criminals don't have rights, that they can be coerced into confessions? It does seem that for certain criminals you're willing to let the police use illegal methods to catch them.
CR
Last edited by Crazed Rabbit; 02-16-2010 at 19:20.
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Rubbish. First of all CR, I haven't heard much whining from you over Gitmo, so get off your high horse.
Yes, a government must operate within the law. Could you please tell me whjy that doesn't apply to the Swiss government? Just why don't you have any objection to their criminal money-laundering?
Also, would you be happy if the German government made a new law, saying that it's legal to purchase cd's from swiss bankers?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Completely irrelevant to this discussion.
The Swiss government isn't breaking any of its' laws, and the people putting money in their banks aren't breaking Swiss law. It certainly isn't on them to enforce the laws of other nations.Yes, a government must operate within the law. Could you please tell me whjy that doesn't apply to the Swiss government?Just why don't you have any objection to their criminal money-laundering?
No, it would simply be legalizing the harming of human rights. Would you be happy if the US passed a law saying Gitmo was legal? Would you be happy if a law was passed saying the police could beat suspects to get a confession?Also, would you be happy if the German government made a new law, saying that it's legal to purchase cd's from swiss bankers?
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
When you spout nonsense like "I support people being innocent until proven guilty" it suddenly becomes very relevant to this discussion.
In effect, that's what the Swiss government has done, they have passed a law making a crime, moneylaundering, legal. And you think that's all fine and dandy....The Swiss government isn't breaking any of its' laws, and the people putting money in their banks aren't breaking Swiss law. It certainly isn't on them to enforce the laws of other nations.
No, it would simply be legalizing the harming of human rights. Would you be happy if the US passed a law saying Gitmo was legal? Would you be happy if a law was passed saying the police could beat suspects to get a confession?
CR
Also, beating a confession out of people? Excuse me, are you on some kind of medication? Strawman anyone? Let's get this back into perspective here:
If Germany decides to buy the cd, there is zero chance of any legit person with a swiss bank account having his privacy invaded.
Let's say the cops hear of a house with a ton of cocaine inside. One of the residents in the house nicks the key from the owner, gives the key to the police and tells them that there's a ton of cocaine inside. You believe that in such a situation, the police should not be allowed to enter the house. I believe that's pure rubbish, and that the police should of course go into the house and confiscate that ton of cocaine.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
It is, they tested it and their lawyers said it's within the law, maybe not swiss law but then who cares about that?
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Oh!
Nice burn, Husar
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
It's a red herring logical fallacy.
No, that is not correct at all. They don't act as agents of the German or other country's police forces. You seem to be insisting on a "you're either with us or against us" view where the Swiss either enforce the laws of other countries or are supporting criminals from those countries. It's a false choice.In effect, that's what the Swiss government has done, they have passed a law making a crime, moneylaundering, legal. And you think that's all fine and dandy....
It doesn't matter one bit if only criminals would be caught. The Government would have used illegal methods to catch them. The rule of law is more important than putting criminals behind bars.Also, beating a confession out of people? Excuse me, are you on some kind of medication? Strawman anyone? Let's get this back into perspective here:
If Germany decides to buy the cd, there is zero chance of any legit person with a swiss bank account having his privacy invaded.
Why not set up and watch some known drug dealing area, then track everyone who goes there and search their cars, their homes, etc., at will? Oh, right, because that would be violating their human rights.
A ridiculous analogy. First of all, if a resident of that house told the police there's a ton of cocaine hidden inside, they wouldn't need a key; they would have probably cause for a warrant. That's how (in theory) police in the US work; they don't have to get hold of stolen keys and sneak into crime scenes.Let's say the cops hear of a house with a ton of cocaine inside. One of the residents in the house nicks the key from the owner, gives the key to the police and tells them that there's a ton of cocaine inside. You believe that in such a situation, the police should not be allowed to enter the house. I believe that's pure rubbish, and that the police should of course go into the house and confiscate that ton of cocaine.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
As Husar has stated, it wouldn't break German laws.
Is it Germany's responsibility to uphold Switzerlands laws?
EDIT: and I eagerly await the post where you demand the immediate closure of Gitmo...
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
So, they couldn't legally pay someone to break into a Swiss Bank and steal data so the government could get money, but they can pay someone who has broken into a bank and stolen data so the government can get data? How very convenient for them.
Any English link to the news?
No, the point is that Germany is buying data from a criminal that it could not otherwise legally obtain.Is it Germany's responsibility to uphold Switzerlands laws?
In short, contracting out certain aspects of law enforcement to criminals with bounties.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Bah. I fully support any law that will make it legal to break into the records of tax havens and money laundering sites, so bah.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
So I'd trust you'd have no problem with the US making it legal for CIA agents to sneak into Norway and capture alleged terrorists? Think of it as making it legal to break into terrorist havens and bring terrorists to justice.
Or a Swiss law making it legal for them to go into Germany and kidnap the thief in order to take him back to Switzerland and throw him in jail.
Oh, and of course your views would make for a decidedly unfriendly attitude between some nations, and likely violate international law and all concepts of sovereignty. I guess diplomacy is overrated.
I also suppose you won't complain about Gitmo anymore.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Using a thief to catch thieves?
Yes, because torture and fines are the same thing.So I'd trust you'd have no problem with the US making it legal for CIA agents to sneak into Norway and capture alleged terrorists? Think of it as making it legal to break into terrorist havens and bring terrorists to justice.
Or a Swiss law making it legal for them to go into Germany and kidnap the thief in order to take him back to Switzerland and throw him in jail.
Oh, and of course your views would make for a decidedly unfriendly attitude between some nations, and likely violate international law and all concepts of sovereignty. I guess diplomacy is overrated.
I also suppose you won't complain about Gitmo anymore.
CR
Oh wait.
But do I support Israel and Mossad's right to arrest and extradite former nazi's or suspected terrorists hiding in countries unwilling to arrest them? Yes. No question. Do I support them when they screw up and kill innocent people like Lillehammer or Gitmo? No. That's why I like that separation of powers thingy, I would not mind the US arresting suspected terrorists abroad IF they were given a fair trial instead of being sent to a torture camp like Gitmo(or worse) without being found guilty.
Last edited by HoreTore; 02-16-2010 at 22:45.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
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