Are killing routers giving honor?

**Yesugey** · 02-02-2010, 09:50

Can your men gain honour by collecting the heads of runners?

I remember my Yari cavalry collects 500+ heads in one battle, but still in honor 1. So i thought only "fighting enemies kills" counts.

And here is another question: Sometimes i remember like i see my men "losing" some honor. Not with the death of general, i mean in battle they fighting so terrible so their honor is lowering. Is that possible or its just a hallucination from my newbie times?

**Togakure** · 02-02-2010, 17:15

If I remember correctly, units do gain honor if they kill routing enemies but it's less than if they were fighting back. Samurai do not gain honor for running down ashigaru (spears and guns); in fact, some "elite" units "ignore" fleeing peasants (you can manually order them to attack but they tend to do so lackadaisically and you have to keep ordering them).

I'm not aware of units losing honor, but in Warlord Edition/Mongol Invasions you can combine attritioned units of the same type, which can result in a lower honor level for the resulting full unit (honor is calculated individually so the average honor of the unit drops below the honor level of the two partial units, etc.).

If a high-star general is killed on the field it would make sense that their army immediately loses the honor bonus granted them by serving under that general, but I can't say this is fact. just an assumption. This would cause it to appear as if units were losing honor, when in fact they are just losing the bonus accorded them by their commander.

That's what I remember anyway.

**ReluctantSamurai** · 02-03-2010, 19:17

IIRC, I've seen units lose honor for taking heavy casualties and causing few or none in return. Units that were flanked and routed, or arrow fodder units used in forcing a bridge that routed are examples that come to mind............

**gollum** · 02-04-2010, 05:59

Originally posted by Masamune
If a high-star general is killed on the field it would make sense that their army immediately loses the honor bonus granted them by serving under that general, but I can't say this is fact. just an assumption.

Its probably fact.

I'm not aware of units losing honor, but in Warlord Edition/Mongol Invasions you can combine attritioned units of the same type, which can result in a lower honor level for the resulting full unit (honor is calculated individually so the average honor of the unit drops below the honor level of the two partial units, etc.).

The same happens in the original, only that both units need to be below the nominal standard size of a unit in strength - in MI/WE this is ignored and one of the units will "split" its numbers and jump to the one intended with the same calcs for honor.

**DEB8** · 04-22-2010, 23:16

Originally Posted by Yesugey

And here is another question: Sometimes i remember like i see my men "losing" some honor. Not with the death of general, i mean in battle they fighting so terrible so their honor is lowering. Is that possible or its just a hallucination from my newbie times?

It happens. During a battle units can both gain AND lose Honour, and if you watch your units Honour ratings during a battle you will sometimes see them change. Don't watch out for this though or you may lose the battle!

After each battle you get a large list of your units that gives various information. Mostly you will note the amount of men that each of your units has lost and the amount of the enemy that you have killed. However, you also have an "Honour Gained" column ( right central ) ; this usually shows "0". Sometimes you will get +1 or +2 , sometimes -1 or -2. Not sure what causes the plus's other than kills caused ( the number of the enemy killed is usually high against the plus entries, but there are other factors).The AI likes to give extra Honour to units that have lost a lot of men! The minus's are usually caused by routing, where the rout would normally be unexpected ( ? failed Morale test where the risk of failure was low ? ). In this latter instance an Honour 1 unit usually loses 1, and an Honour 2 unit usually loses 2.

**DEB8** · 04-22-2010, 23:23

Originally Posted by Masamune

If a high-star general is killed on the field it would make sense that their army immediately loses the honor bonus granted them by serving under that general, but I can't say this is fact. just an assumption. This would cause it to appear as if units were losing honor, when in fact they are just losing the bonus accorded them by their commander.

That's what I remember anyway.

I am not sure this happens. ( It should though! ) I recall having this happen to me with one of my generals, and I was suprised to note that the units Honour did not fall. I think all that happens is the morale drop ( which the AI "announces").

**Yesugey** · 04-24-2010, 10:24

Originally Posted by DEB8

It happens. During a battle units can both gain AND lose Honour, and if you watch your units Honour ratings during a battle you will sometimes see them change. Don't watch out for this though or you may lose the battle!

After each battle you get a large list of your units that gives various information. Mostly you will note the amount of men that each of your units has lost and the amount of the enemy that you have killed. However, you also have an "Honour Gained" column ( left central ) ; this usually shows "0". Sometimes you will get +1 or +2 , sometimes -1 or -2. Not sure what causes the plus's other than kills caused ( the number of the enemy killed is usually high against the plus entries, but there are other factors).The AI likes to give extra Honour to units that have lost a lot of men! The minus's are usually caused by routing, where the rout would normally be unexpected ( ? failed Morale test where the risk of failure was low ? ). In this latter instance an Honour 1 unit usually loses 1, and an Honour 2 unit usually loses 2.

Uhm, i thought only the units completely destroyed has negative honor bonus after battles. I dont remember any of my units left the battle with gaining negative honor. Then again, i was newbie at these times. But thanks for backing me up though!

**chaouki** · 04-24-2010, 11:50

Originally Posted by Yesugey

Uhm, i thought only the units completely destroyed has negative honor bonus after battles. I dont remember any of my units left the battle with gaining negative honor. Then again, i was newbie at these times. But thanks for backing me up though!

if one of your units loses a hell lot of men and still some survive it may also "gain" negative honor

**A Nerd** · 04-24-2010, 18:33

I think I've seen units in AI armies that have negative honor. I assumed it was aquired when a battle was lost.

**Togakure** · 04-24-2010, 18:39

Iirc, negative honor results from the commander "bonus," which is actually a penalty if the commander was at zero honor and then lost a few battles. If he then leads honor zero troops, they will have negative honor. I don't think units can get negative honor on their own.

**A Nerd** · 04-24-2010, 18:47

Ah, I see. That makes sense. If memory serves the generals did lose more battles than they had won.

**DEB8** · 04-29-2010, 22:59

Originally Posted by Masamune

Iirc, negative honor results from the commander "bonus," which is actually a penalty if the commander was at zero honor and then lost a few battles. If he then leads honor zero troops, they will have negative honor. I don't think units can get negative honor on their own.

This is proberly correct, although I have not witnessed it yet.
I have seen Generals with a RANK of -1 but not a Generals Bonus of -1. I have always avoided using -1 Ranked Generals in battles and have therefore avoided obtaining a -1 Honour Bonus General!

Re my previous comments: note that any "negative" honour "gained" during a battle, should not result in a unit having negative honour after a battle. I.E. a unit that starts a battle with unit honour of 2 can lose a maximum of 2 unit honour during the battle.

**Caliburn** · 07-15-2010, 12:02

If I remember correctly, the unit honour is relative to three things: the general, the unit commander and the individual soldiers in the unit.

Each man has his own valour value, typically 0 to begin with. The more the man kills, the more the valour rises. If the man dies, the valour of the unit is also reduced by a fraction. For example, a unit of 10 men with 9 rookies and one valour 10 jedi would have valour 1. However, if the jedi is killed during a battle, the unit's valour drops back to zero. Quite often the soldiers "level up" during battles, and the valour rises. Later, when the "leveled up" soldiers die, the valour they've gained for the unit is also lost. Seen this quite often with light cavalry.

**caravel** · 07-15-2010, 12:34

Yes, unit honour is an average based on every man's individual honour. So if a high honour inidividual dies, the average honour can be decreased - similarly if a few 0 honour men die, the unit honour can increase. Retraining or merging also affects this in that it fills a unit full of potentially 0 honour men, which "dilute" the unit's average honour.

The average honour may seem unimportant, because those higher honour men are assumed to be still in the unit fighting at their own individual honour values - IIRC this is not actually the case and high honour individuals have their attack and defence bonuses nerfed somewhat by the average unit honour.

More importantly the average honour affects the unit morale bonus (as far as I'm aware: +2 morale for every point of average unit honour (morale in STW/MTW is per unit not per man). This means that your +5 honour Yari Ashigaru will still run away along with his 0 honour fellows if you merge him into the same unit (it's quite obvious that morale needed to work like that).