Dear Mods/Admins

[TinCow]

The fact of the matter is, and here I am anwering god-knows-how-many mods, the Tavern was not some cess pit of disgusting pr0n (afaik, we didn't actually have any pictures AT ALL with women in any regard, except once, and Appo deleted that within the week), warez (none whatsoever), gore (again, none), flame wars (only a few, and these were all dealt with privately), and whilst there was swearing, the amounts decreased dramatically after we were warned, and several posts were moderated by Appo.(congratulations on reading that sentance in one go, it was a long one).
What you are doing, is pure misrepresentation.

When the Moderators finally took a good look at the Tavern on December 17th, 60 separate rule violations were found in about 2 hours. That included cartoon pornography and a video of a cat being burned alive, with the majority of the rest being swearing, racism, and personal attacks. That was barely scratching the surface of the group as well, no one bothered digging deeper when it became apparent that the entire 10,000 posts would be consistent with the first couple hundred.

You Tavernites were clearly aware that what you were doing violated Org rules as well, as is apparent from a post made by Meth shortly after the Tavern was deleted:

What isn't to be expected, though, is the fact that I wasn't banned after all my countless violations of forum rules in the first tavern's social group. I guess Tosa just grimaced at it all and mercifully looked the other way.

If Meth was aware that his posts in the social group violated Org rules, I expect that the rest of you were as well.

[Che Roriniho]

That included cartoon pornography and a video of a cat being burned alive

I will accept the Swearing, but this is just plain LYING.

[Ser Clegane]

At least the cat post I definitely remember. Perhaps you should ask the other Taverners - I am pretty sure that you will find somebody who actually has the guts to admit that it was posted and that it was out of line.

Accusing others oy lying is pretty poor style.

[Andres]

I will accept the Swearing, but this is just plain LYING.

You're right, it was not a cat. It was a kitten. The fire was lit with a zippo. Do I need to give more details or has your memory been refreshed enough already?

EDIT: I'm starting to wonder why I even bothered to make a long reply to your famous "letter"

Get your facts right before accusing people of being liars.

And thnx for making us look at that, btw. Very nice and friendly. You wanted reasons for deleting the EB Tavern? There you go. I'm all for being diplomatic and hiding your dirty laundry, but if you're going to play the "you're lying game" then I'll stop being nice and friendly in my rebuttals.

[TinCow]

I will accept the Swearing, but this is just plain LYING.

I went back and checked and apparently the pornography was in a Taverner visitor message, not in the social group itself, so my apologies for that.

The video of the cat was most certainly posted in the Tavern though. It was posted in the thread "Official EB Tavern Photo Album."

[Aemilius Paulus]

The video of the cat was most certainly posted in the Tavern though. It was posted in the thread "Official EB Tavern Photo Album."

What cat video? First someone says there was a reference to a cat burning, then it is picture of a cat burning, then it is a video, then it was done numerous times and then, I even heard some say I burned the cat myself... I mean, who cares about accuracy when you can just throw around accusations to pad one's arguments?

I have noticed that mods like to do what seems to me like dredging through 10,000 posts and finding two-three worst things we ever did - even though those much of that is inaccurate - I have never seen porn in the Tavern, and only once some newbie with less than 30 posts came into the Tavern (it was a public group) and posted a cartoon picture of a woman with bared breasts. That created an outcry among us Taverners, and someone deleted it after it was reported numerous times (either Tosa or Appo). Anyhow, armed with those two-three things, the mods go out and post things casually suggesting that those two things they managed to find after all that digging are stuff of the line for us...

So take the cat for instance. Yes, I did post it. I also posted a warning and a condemnation of the fellow who did it, because I can hardly find a more heinous and repulsive crime. Even a murder of an adult human seems less upsetting, as humans are not innocent, nor are the defenceless as an animal the likes of a cat is. Additionally, there was no picture. It was a link. One could click on the link if he wished to. As I said, there was a warning, and one had no reason to click unless the really wanted to. If this was not enough, I did not receive any complaints about the picture. If I did, I would have taken it down.

And hell, even if I was not cooperative, what is a dead animal, to take this from a different perspective? This is not a community of vegans. We all have the blood of animals on our hands. No need to claim that animal raising, processing, and killing is humane, either, because it is often not, but rather very cruel. Does the difference in the motive change so much in the picture? Finally, even if the picture is cruel, still, I do not see how it goes against .Org rules, as it does not seem to fit under any of the categories, especially since plenty other offensive stuff is posted here, and as long as it contains proper warnings, it is OK. I have done everything to ensure the picture was posted in the most fitting manner, so I do not see why the commotion.

Deletion of the Tavern stuck me as rather, well, not entirely fitting. Take this for instance - it technically does not matter to the Taverners if the Tavern is locked forever on .Org or not. We can always go to some other site, take peever's offer, or go to our TWC backup. There are a lot of choices. We can talk anywhere. The real problem is that the value of the Tavern is not so much consisting of its location, but rather its content. That is what matters, and it is gone. We are mostly a group of teens, and our conversations may not have fully fit the standards of .Org, as an udnerstatement. I do not see anything surprising in this, and neither should the mods - who act as if we spoke of child rape there, and broke the rules there just for the hell of it - which makes no sense whatsoever. Apparently the mods forgot they were teens aeons ago () and that their conversations were not exactly clean either... Really, you do realise that teen conversations are not exactly PG-rated? I say PG, because PG-13 includes a fair amount of profanity and violence - and since the mods claim to use the US system, I will use this against them. So far, save for maybe two or three instances (could be even less, could be more - I am speaking figuratively here), the EB Tavern was PG-13.

And speaking of child rape and pornography, I remember the Babe thread facing the same controversies. Numerous times. In fact, I am given to understand 'accidental' postings revealing inappropriate areas are relatively common in the Babe thread. Oh, and more ominously, I recollect an incident pertaining to child pornography. Now, if you can name anything more despicable, I would be impressed. And the Babe thread does not just feature links, it has the pictures right on the thread... My, my... Yet the worst I saw happen to the Babe thread was a lock. IMHO, that is what the Tavern should have gotten. The mods could have locked it, until some consensus could be reached. You could have punished us this way too, by keeping it locked.

The Tavern is so valuable to us because it has all those conversations, all those moments, and not merely because that is where we can chat. As I said, there are other places where we can do that. You say we had violations. So did the Babe thread, and it was patrolled by teams of mods, and it still managed to shock .Org every so often. But the Babe thread was not deleted. EB Tavern was. Just think what outcry the deletion of the babe thread would raise, and I do not even see a good reason why that should be so, since the pictures of famous female models are hardly unique, as opposed to our conversations...