Dear Mods/Admins

[Pannonian]

There's a concept at TWC called probation, where, instead of permabans (which are essentially limited to porn posters and bots), especially egregious offenders would be put on the list, as an extra incentive to abide by the rules. Rather than the regular points system with its graded list of penalties graduating towards longer suspension times, any infraction by a probationee would, at the moderator's discretion, result in a suspension of discretionary length (until recently, a minimum of a month and no set maximum). Probationees are periodically discussed by staff on whether or not they should be taken off the list and revert to the normal system. Perhaps this might concentrate minds a bit?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It has been argued one too many time. But please think about it. It is true, you are just moderating. And that is the problem. You don't treat us like human beings, you delete, you ban, you kick people out of the tavern, you exclude. This is not very subtle.
And then you shouldn't wonder why certain people are angry and frustrated. You don't even try to work out the problems between the tavern and the moderation (except for Andres, whos post in the tavern was more then impressive). I wish it was more diplomacy and less "just pull the trigger".

Yes, because God forbid your group be treated like everyone else on the forums.

This whining is inane. Anyone who did what your group did in any other section of the forum wouldn't be coming back very quickly. That group got off lightly. The .Org has rules. Everyone else has to follow them, and your group should do so as well. They haven't, and that is why the problem came about. That's really all there is to it.

[A Very Super Market]

A MEMBER IS ENTITLED TO HIS RIGHT TO SAY ANYTHING HE WANTS

Che, shut up. Honest to god, why don't you just leave? You barely visit anymore, besides to create trouble for the rest of us who aren't wildly insulting everyone that we disagree with. I was peeved when the tavern was suddenly deleted, and peeved with the watchtower threads which alternated between comparisons of the tavern with 4chan, and comments like "THE MODS ARE NAZIS". Now that is gone, and I am in the least bit peeved. There is nothing to argue. While I do wish to clarify things, I won't even try because it doesn't bring anything new to this rotting horse. I tolerated you, Che, as I tolerated anyone else that I dislike. I avoided just telling you to gtfo because it would be rude. You'll see it as traitorous. I don't give a damn, because this isn't a political entity. You have the personality of a revolutionary, but you're trying to overthrow an internet forum, which is the most absurd thing I have ever heard of. Novaya comrade.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, if tavern will be left still opened, but the taverners didn't want to get their group moderated by an admin / mod, then they should appoint an willing outsider, to take charge as the moderators of the taverners. Who have enough guts to delete anything violate the forum rules....

[Askthepizzaguy]

Deliberately irritating.. yes I'm bored here. Nothing to do.

I certainly lol'ed.


As for the poll, Tosa: "Should you close the group or leave it open"- If you were going to poll, just ask the moderators. The rest of us don't spend our free time moderating the forums, so it's not our place to say how this forum gets moderated. And that's if you take a poll. I'm sure the green gods have already weighed in on the matter, and in the end the decision is yours.

As for the overall drama, I don't see where it comes from. The .org is not our house, it belongs to someone else and they make the rules. There's no free speech here. However, this is a place where you can apparently post accusatory things, even insulting things, toward the mods and even the Admin, and not get tossed out in the cold forever immediately. I think that's amazing, and shows the tolerance involved on the part of these apparent "Hitler" wannabes (also lol'ed). The amount of freedom given here is also amazing, and the fact that there are warning points, and temporary bans, show you that these people are willing to let you back in even after repeatedly breaking the rules.

When a social group is full of rule breaks, I'm impressed that the mods do you the courtesy of sitting here and listening to the grievances and explain their position on why the place was deleted. They certainly have other things on their plate, such as the forum upgrade and moderating everyone's posts, in their free time. If this really were such a bad place, I'm not sure why we all would keep voluntarily coming back. If it were about intentionally irritating or annoying people, I'm not sure why they would allow a second or third tavern, or give warnings before deletion. I understand being upset but the facts don't meet the narrative it seems.

[Aemilius Paulus]

The video of the cat was most certainly posted in the Tavern though. It was posted in the thread "Official EB Tavern Photo Album."

What cat video? First someone says there was a reference to a cat burning, then it is picture of a cat burning, then it is a video, then it was done numerous times and then, I even heard some say I burned the cat myself... I mean, who cares about accuracy when you can just throw around accusations to pad one's arguments?

I have noticed that mods like to do what seems to me like dredging through 10,000 posts and finding two-three worst things we ever did - even though those much of that is inaccurate - I have never seen porn in the Tavern, and only once some newbie with less than 30 posts came into the Tavern (it was a public group) and posted a cartoon picture of a woman with bared breasts. That created an outcry among us Taverners, and someone deleted it after it was reported numerous times (either Tosa or Appo). Anyhow, armed with those two-three things, the mods go out and post things casually suggesting that those two things they managed to find after all that digging are stuff of the line for us...

So take the cat for instance. Yes, I did post it. I also posted a warning and a condemnation of the fellow who did it, because I can hardly find a more heinous and repulsive crime. Even a murder of an adult human seems less upsetting, as humans are not innocent, nor are the defenceless as an animal the likes of a cat is. Additionally, there was no picture. It was a link. One could click on the link if he wished to. As I said, there was a warning, and one had no reason to click unless the really wanted to. If this was not enough, I did not receive any complaints about the picture. If I did, I would have taken it down.

And hell, even if I was not cooperative, what is a dead animal, to take this from a different perspective? This is not a community of vegans. We all have the blood of animals on our hands. No need to claim that animal raising, processing, and killing is humane, either, because it is often not, but rather very cruel. Does the difference in the motive change so much in the picture? Finally, even if the picture is cruel, still, I do not see how it goes against .Org rules, as it does not seem to fit under any of the categories, especially since plenty other offensive stuff is posted here, and as long as it contains proper warnings, it is OK. I have done everything to ensure the picture was posted in the most fitting manner, so I do not see why the commotion.

Deletion of the Tavern stuck me as rather, well, not entirely fitting. Take this for instance - it technically does not matter to the Taverners if the Tavern is locked forever on .Org or not. We can always go to some other site, take peever's offer, or go to our TWC backup. There are a lot of choices. We can talk anywhere. The real problem is that the value of the Tavern is not so much consisting of its location, but rather its content. That is what matters, and it is gone. We are mostly a group of teens, and our conversations may not have fully fit the standards of .Org, as an udnerstatement. I do not see anything surprising in this, and neither should the mods - who act as if we spoke of child rape there, and broke the rules there just for the hell of it - which makes no sense whatsoever. Apparently the mods forgot they were teens aeons ago () and that their conversations were not exactly clean either... Really, you do realise that teen conversations are not exactly PG-rated? I say PG, because PG-13 includes a fair amount of profanity and violence - and since the mods claim to use the US system, I will use this against them. So far, save for maybe two or three instances (could be even less, could be more - I am speaking figuratively here), the EB Tavern was PG-13.

And speaking of child rape and pornography, I remember the Babe thread facing the same controversies. Numerous times. In fact, I am given to understand 'accidental' postings revealing inappropriate areas are relatively common in the Babe thread. Oh, and more ominously, I recollect an incident pertaining to child pornography. Now, if you can name anything more despicable, I would be impressed. And the Babe thread does not just feature links, it has the pictures right on the thread... My, my... Yet the worst I saw happen to the Babe thread was a lock. IMHO, that is what the Tavern should have gotten. The mods could have locked it, until some consensus could be reached. You could have punished us this way too, by keeping it locked.

The Tavern is so valuable to us because it has all those conversations, all those moments, and not merely because that is where we can chat. As I said, there are other places where we can do that. You say we had violations. So did the Babe thread, and it was patrolled by teams of mods, and it still managed to shock .Org every so often. But the Babe thread was not deleted. EB Tavern was. Just think what outcry the deletion of the babe thread would raise, and I do not even see a good reason why that should be so, since the pictures of famous female models are hardly unique, as opposed to our conversations...

[TosaInu]

As for the poll, Tosa: "Should you close the group or leave it open"- If you were going to poll, just ask the moderators. The rest of us don't spend our free time moderating the forums, so it's not our place to say how this forum gets moderated.