According to christian beliefs, where's Gandhi now?

[HoreTore]

Gandhi had little to do with riots, pogroms or the splitting of British India. You'll have to look at British colonial policy (divide and conquer) for that, as well as the Muslim elite, bitter as they were that they wouldn't get back the power they held before the conquest of India (Mughal age). Everybody knows Gandhi fasted to oppose the pogroms and was adamantly opposed to Jinnah's plans to split British India in two. Moreover, his racist views date from his earlier years in South Africa, were AFAIK not an issue later in life (when he did most of his famous works) and are finally entirely expectable and excusable in that day and age.

Indeed. His philosophy was strict non-violence. That Martin Luther King followed his example is perhaps the best reason why the civil rights struggle in the 60's was relatively bloodless. India is a big country with a billion people; of course he can't stop all of them from hating each other. Why was he right in pushing for independence? Because that's what the indian people wanted, and as such its a democratic obligation... The point, however, is not whether or not to do it, but the way in which it was done, ie. the non-violence.

Gandhi ranks among the finest examples the human race has ever produced. To punish him in any way is just wrong. If he isn't punished then there isn't really any point for me to follow jesus either....

[Centurion1]

Martin Luther King followed his example is perhaps the best reason why the civil rights struggle in the 60's was relatively bloodless.

Martin Luther King was not a saint either.


As to Gandhi's right to heaven I believe that God takes into account culture and other religion but judges you as more a whole individual not on a single thing. Basically (this is my life now) if you were applying to university he would look at your grades but also your extracurricular and sports. So personally following God by the christian faith is just one of many paths to reaching him. He believes that all paths are paths to Him as he is simply different manifestations of Himself. Sorta stolen from the Hindu's belief but I am not arguing.

As to PVC's right to think Christianity is superior........ well if you personally follow something of course you think you follow the right path and you have a superior religion. Do you have a religion Wizard. Because if you do you probably think deep down you are right and they are obviously wrong. Even if you do not and are an atheist as i know you are Horetore you probably think you know better than us poor saps who actually believe in a God. Better to be safe than sorry though, eh.

The part about different paths was told to me directly by my Catholic priest, the biggest Christian sect so I would say what he think is relatively accurate as to beliefs of the church.

And Beskar are you talking about purgatory? Just wondering

PVC while the racism comment may be a tad overdone considering most peoples feelings at the time I understand what yo are saying, nobody is a real saint in everyone's eyes, even actual christian saints.

[The Wizard]

I am an agnost, so no, I do not have a religion.

[Centurion1]

Do you understand what i am saying though. People have a natural tendency to think their beliefs are right and others are wrong. To attempt to do anything else is impossibel because no matter how hard you try to equalize religion you are going to think your particular dogma is the RIGHT ONE.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do you understand what i am saying though. People have a natural tendency to think their beliefs are right and others are wrong. To attempt to do anything else is impossibel because no matter how hard you try to equalize religion you are going to think your particular dogma is the RIGHT ONE.

Quite, in fact holding a belief you don't see as superior to others in hypocritical.

As far as the Racism issue, my point was that Ghandi took actions that benefitted his own people, and there is evidence he looked down on at least one other "race."

Also, for the record, prejudice does not become acceptable in a particular context.

[HoreTore]

Quite, in fact holding a belief you don't see as superior to others in hypocritical.

As far as the Racism issue, my point was that Ghandi took actions that benefitted his own people, and there is evidence he looked down on at least one other "race."

Also, for the record, prejudice does not become acceptable in a particular context.

So....

You're basically saying that almost every single British monarch, the founding fathers, heck, almost every single person on earth up until modern times were bastards...?

No, I'll stand by my claim that Gandhi was among the best humanity has ever produced.

[Centurion1]

No, it is a different concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory


Limbo is a place between Heaven and Hell, for the good non-believers. Purgatory is a temporary punishment for believers who weren't all that good.

Huh makes sense.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I do not understand the charge against Christians of them being arrogant.

First of all, it is no more arrogant of PVC to say that he believes Christianity to be the only true path, than it is for someone else to say that many paths lead to God. The fact that the latter belief system is more inclusive says nothing of personal traits such as arrogance on the part of those who follow it.

Secondly, Christians do not believe themselves to be superior to anyone else on account of their faith. A born again Christian will believe that without redemption in Christ's blood they are quite simply the scum of the earth. Christianity teaches that if you break one of the commandments, then you have broken all of them, since sin is just an expression of your true nature... a Christian will believe they are no better than a theif, an adulturer, a murderer etc. So how someone can be called arrogant for believing this is beyond me.

[The Wizard]

I do not understand the charge against Christians of them being arrogant.

First of all, it is no more arrogant of PVC to say that he believes Christianity to be the only true path, than it is for someone else to say that many paths lead to God. The fact that the latter belief system is more inclusive says nothing of personal traits such as arrogance on the part of those who follow it.

Secondly, Christians do not believe themselves to be superior to anyone else on account of their faith. A born again Christian will believe that without redemption in Christ's blood they are quite simply the scum of the earth. Christianity teaches that if you break one of the commandments, then you have broken all of them, since sin is just an expression of your true nature... a Christian will believe they are no better than a theif, an adulturer, a murderer etc. So how someone can be called arrogant for believing this is beyond me.

It isn't arrogant to believe that if you reject the Christian dogma, you're the same as a murderer? And it isn't arrogant to assert that your views hold a monopoly on what's morally right? I smell something, smells like logical fallacy...

[Rhyfelwyr]

It isn't arrogant to believe that if you reject the Christian dogma, you're the same as a murderer?

Why would it be? To be arrogant suggest viewing others as inferior to yourself... how is a Christian doing this if they believe they are just as sinful as any other person.

At a personal level, Christianity must surely be one of the least arrogant belief systems of all. It teaches that all people are born in the same state of sin, and that any good qualities are a gift of God and ought to be attributed only to him. Contrast this with the other belief systems out there, that often make people righteous of their own accord simply because they act more 'morally' than others. This reminds me of all those people who claim to be 'moral atheists'. Personally, I could not stomach the thought of claiming to be a good or moral person.

In fact, this idea is quite relevent to this thread. HoreTore and others clearly believe Ghandi was a great and moral individual, no doubt a better person than many others. And yet, if you look at Ghandi himself, one of the aspects of his personality was just how humble he was.

And it isn't arrogant to assert that your views hold a monopoly on what's morally right?

Of course it isn't, that's what everyone does. In claiming many paths lead to God, you have already rejected outright the Christian worldview and assumed that your own belief system is correct. You then go on to make personal judgments on those who do not share your more broad outlook on morality.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So.... Jesus was lying?



So.... God hates freedom?

If Jesus actually said that, it's a matter of context and interpretation because what he said was that all those who turn towards God will be saved; and that message came only from him.

as to whether God hates Freedom; that's a matter of denomination.

So....

You're basically saying that almost every single British monarch, the founding fathers, heck, almost every single person on earth up until modern times were bastards...?

No, I'll stand by my claim that Gandhi was among the best humanity has ever produced.

No, I'm saying they're not perfect; and niether was Ghandi.

It isn't arrogant to believe that if you reject the Christian dogma, you're the same as a murderer? And it isn't arrogant to assert that your views hold a monopoly on what's morally right? I smell something, smells like logical fallacy...

You're missing the point. Christianity is not about "perfecting" the individual, but about repairing the individual's relationship with God. I would not phrase it in the same way Rhy does, because it produces this sort of reaction. However, I do agree with him in that the apparently guiltless man keeps dark secrets in his heart and the serial killer is capable of contrition and thence redemption.

[The Wizard]

Why would it be? To be arrogant suggest viewing others as inferior to yourself... how is a Christian doing this if they believe they are just as sinful as any other person.

At a personal level, Christianity must surely be one of the least arrogant belief systems of all. It teaches that all people are born in the same state of sin, and that any good qualities are a gift of God and ought to be attributed only to him. Contrast this with the other belief systems out there, that often make people righteous of their own accord simply because they act more 'morally' than others. This reminds me of all those people who claim to be 'moral atheists'. Personally, I could not stomach the thought of claiming to be a good or moral person.

In fact, this idea is quite relevent to this thread. HoreTore and others clearly believe Ghandi was a great and moral individual, no doubt a better person than many others. And yet, if you look at Ghandi himself, one of the aspects of his personality was just how humble he was.

You're making no sense, dude. You say Christians think people are murderers because they're not Christians and then you say because of that they can't possibly be arrogant. Perhaps you mean they're crazy? Or maybe stupid? Or maybe just plain wrong? I can think of a plethora of negative adjectives for such a view, but no positive ones.

I don't care what your personal view on Christianity is and if it's arrogant or not. Nor is any view on Christian dogma relevant here, because the point revolves on Christian attitudes towards others. I flipped a lid over PVC apparently viewing non-Christians as inherently morally wrong for not being Christian. Such a view is sickening and so incredibly arrogant it can easily be classified as hubris.

Of course it isn't, that's what everyone does. In claiming many paths lead to God, you have already rejected outright the Christian worldview and assumed that your own belief system is correct. You then go on to make personal judgments on those who do not share your more broad outlook on morality.

I don't make personal judgments based on people believing in Jesus, dude. I make personal judgments on people claiming their religion holds the morality monopoly. That personal judgment is that they are arrogant . I don't get what you don't get about this, it's simple.

You're missing the point. Christianity is not about "perfecting" the individual, but about repairing the individual's relationship with God. I would not phrase it in the same way Rhy does, because it produces this sort of reaction. However, I do agree with him in that the apparently guiltless man keeps dark secrets in his heart and the serial killer is capable of contrition and thence redemption.

No, you are. The point is not what Christianity wants to do (whatever that is), it's about you as a Christian claiming the sole ability to be moral. I don't care about whatever any religious person wants to do with God, if he's claiming he has the monopoly on being righteous he's a pretentious fool.

[Beskar]

And Beskar are you talking about purgatory? Just wondering

No, it is a different concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory


Limbo is a place between Heaven and Hell, for the good non-believers. Purgatory is a temporary punishment for believers who weren't all that good.

Edit: Also, there are all sorts of theories and theotorical thoughts which are different to this as well.

[HoreTore]

As to Gandhi's right to heaven I believe that God takes into account culture and other religion but judges you as more a whole individual not on a single thing. Basically (this is my life now) if you were applying to university he would look at your grades but also your extracurricular and sports. So personally following God by the christian faith is just one of many paths to reaching him. He believes that all paths are paths to Him as he is simply different manifestations of Himself. Sorta stolen from the Hindu's belief but I am not arguing.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So.... Jesus was lying?

You're assuming that god would always agree with public opinion and support democracy in general, maybe the catholic church bows to the will of the people over the years but that is not how the bible describes god. What the indian people wanted might have just been plain wrong in god's eyes.

So.... God hates freedom?

[Husar]

So.... God hates freedom?

If he would, would he have created us able to think for ourselves? That however, does not mean that he will let everyone into heaven. You're not really saying democratic societies hate freedom just because they have laws one must obey to stay out of prison?

[Beskar]

If he would, would he have created us able to think for ourselves?

You haven't been going to bible classes. He never gave us that, technically, satan embodied through a snake actually gave us freedom, by making Adam and Eve eat the apple through their choice, thus, create sin by disobeying god. By eating the apple, Adam and Eve came to know what good and evil are, that evil is going against god and being good is obeying him.

The other consequences from this is that man realised what it was to think for ourselves, opposed to having others think for us (ie: god).

Quite interesting, don't you think?

[Strike For The South]

Hell

[The Wizard]

It's not about me, dude. This thread is about whether Christians would say Gandhi's in heaven. Since I don't really give a crap about heaven, I took offense to the suggestion that not following Christ was a bad thing and implied a lack of moral righteousness in Gandhi. As said here:

Ok, well this is a fair gripe, but you need to take a nuanced view about this. Why didn't he follow Christ? Pride? Racism? Cultural prejudice? These are all attributes attached to Ghandi at one time or another, racism against non-Hindu's and Blacks in particular is the most infamous, I believe.

To simply assume that Ghandi should get into heaven is therefore unjustified, whatever he may have done he was also deeply flawed as an individual.

Who cares if he didn't follow Christ, dude? Look at his works, he can be nothing other than good.

In addition, if I recall correctly, almost every single Christian in this thread has indeed confirmed that Gandhi would indeed not go to heaven. For something as banal as not accepting Jesus.

[Myrddraal]

That quote, "No one shall come to the Father except through me" and people's reactions to it have always confused me a little. Is Jesus actually saying "you have to accept and believe in me to come to the Father"? No, not really. Perhaps he meant (which seems more likely to me) that no one shall go to heaven without my forgiveness? Whatever the case, I fear we are putting words in his mouth when we use that phrase to justify the point of view that non-Christians don't go to heaven.

Who said we think for ourselves? It may seem so, but appearances are deceptive. Who is to say we are not but automatons... He does not even need to control us. We are our own slaves.

That way madness lies... or at least, that way the twisting of logic and nihilism lies. I'll fall back on a misused and abused quote: "I think therefore I am"

[Aemilius Paulus]

That way madness lies... or at least, that way the twisting of logic and nihilism lies.

Yeah, been there, done that, still there.

EDIT: Nihilism-absurdism, that is me... Nothing surprising for my age and standing.

[Aemilius Paulus]

If he would, would he have created us able to think for ourselves?

Who said we think for ourselves? It may seem so, but appearances are deceptive. Who is to say we are not but automatons, believing we have free will, yet always choosing predictable choices based on personality, upbringing, other people, general environment, etc... Does God not know every step we will make in our lives before we are even born? He does not even need to control us. We are our own slaves.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Who said we think for ourselves? It may seem so, but appearances are deceptive. Who is to say we are not but automatons, believing we have free will, yet always choosing predictable choices based on personality, upbringing, other people, general environment, etc... Does God not know every step we will make in our lives before we are even born? He does not even need to control us. We are our own slaves.

That way madness lies... or at least, that way the twisting of logic and nihilism lies. I'll fall back on a misused and abused quote: "I think therefore I am"

If I go to get some ice cream, what flavor I choose is entirely predictable based on past experiences with taste and genetic programming. I'm a slave to my own taste. I may think I have a choice, but the process is automatic.

But I still get to eat my favorite ice cream...which I bought because it's my favorite...and it's delicious. Deny that, nihilists.

[Viking]

In heaven or hell?

This is one of the main reason why I'll never be a christian was a Hindu. He did not follow christ, and as such shouldn't be in heaven right? Only through me and all that... If he isn't in heaven, then he must be in Hell, or I guess somewhere less pleasing than heaven for those who do not believe in hell. Can't claim the ignorance and limbo thing on him either, as he certainly knew about christianity and jesus, but decided not to convert.

But what god would punish Gandhi? Seriously? The man who organized a succesful independence movement not through war, but through total nonviolence, and also inspired a bunch of other nonviolence movements all over the world. To punish such a man would be rather.... evil, wouldn't it? On the other hand, if he isn't punished in any way, if he got into heaven ass a Hindu, then what's the point of accepting christ then? I could just go about being a good boy, and no harm will come to me in the afterlife...

It depends entirely upon what truly matters on this Earth. If it was to belong to a certain religion, you could say that the rest doesn't matter. It would be like a child molester risking his own life in order to rescue someone from certain death - there is going to be something ambiguous about his reputation no matter what he does.

If a deity defines the meaning of life to be something different than what you do, there's little do be done about that.

[Beskar]

If I go to get some ice cream, what flavor I choose is entirely predictable based on past experiences with taste and genetic programming. I'm a slave to my own taste. I may think I have a choice, but the process is automatic.

But I still get to eat my favorite ice cream...which I bought because it's my favorite...and it's delicious. Deny that, nihilists.

That argument gets very interesting when it comes to homosexuality. But that is a different subject.

[Husar]

You haven't been going to bible classes.

I haven't? Now that's interesting, how do you know?

He never gave us that, technically, satan embodied through a snake actually gave us freedom, by making Adam and Eve eat the apple through their choice, thus, create sin by disobeying god. By eating the apple, Adam and Eve came to know what good and evil are, that evil is going against god and being good is obeying him.

The other consequences from this is that man realised what it was to think for ourselves, opposed to having others think for us (ie: god).

Quite interesting, don't you think?

Indeed, it is, I find it very interesting that god's puppets were apparently ordered by god (since they had no free will as you say) to listen to the snake and eat the apple despite god's orders not to. Yeah, sure, no sign of free will or decision-making there...

Who said we think for ourselves? It may seem so, but appearances are deceptive. Who is to say we are not but automatons, believing we have free will, yet always choosing predictable choices based on personality, upbringing, other people, general environment, etc... Does God not know every step we will make in our lives before we are even born? He does not even need to control us. We are our own slaves.

So you're talking about a deterministic world where every atom and every photon will more or less spark a chain reaction or change that of another and these things chainreactions are basically hat makes the universe "move", that's a view I thought about before, kinda destroys the american dream, doesn't it? In fact i think it would make everything completely meaningless and that's exactly where i stop thinking about it because from there it's only going in circles and this automaton does not like circles.

Oh, and what Myrddraal said.

[Beskar]

Indeed, it is, I find it very interesting that god's puppets were apparently ordered by god (since they had no free will as you say) to listen to the snake and eat the apple despite god's orders not to. Yeah, sure, no sign of free will or decision-making there...

What decision making?

[Husar]

Why was he right in pushing for independence? Because that's what the indian people wanted, and as such its a democratic obligation...

You're assuming that god would always agree with public opinion and support democracy in general, maybe the catholic church bows to the will of the people over the years but that is not how the bible describes god. What the indian people wanted might have just been plain wrong in god's eyes.