According to christian beliefs, where's Gandhi now?

[Askthepizzaguy]

It's not my intent to troll nice people who are religious, because it may offend them and that's not my intent. But I still feel like I can share my opinion, can I not? Spoiler'ed anyway to protect people's feelings.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For me it is a moot point, because I cannot bring myself to think that a kind and loving creator being would burn me forever simply because I didn't blindly accept one man's opinion that he was God.

It's sort of a contradiction in terms. The benevolent, merciful torturer of his own children. There is no morally righteous God if it values blind faith over reason, and assigns EITHER of them a moral value. Faith nor reason are inherently good or bad. Plenty of men have faith and commit terrible atrocities, some men have reason (flawed reason) and commit terrible atrocities. Faith has nothing to do with morality. Then you get into the No True Scotsman argument- no Christians are evil because they accepted Christ, but those who commit evil didn't really accept Jesus into their heart. If the main selling point is that no matter what I do, as long as I accept Christ I get into heaven, and if I don't I am cast out, that right there tells me that the true value is the church coffers and the church pews never being empty. The main moral value in organized religion is money and political power.

The flowery "we're all evil, just as bad as murderers, if we don't accept Christ" argument is total hooey. That means every person who lived before Christ is in hell. Oh, but we can make exceptions, yes? Sure we can. See God made a special pact with everyone before Jesus, the old covenants and such. And those poor native Americans that never heard about Christ? Well they can't get into heaven but they can be judged on their merits and sent somewhere less bad than hell. Goody, so they are denied eternal paradise because they were born in the wrong place? Isn't that God's fault, not theirs?

If all else fails, Noah's ark. I urge someone to collect all the species in their own locality, nevermind the whole of the Earth, and build a ship and herd all the animals on it, and then after the flood is over, re-distribute them across the lands in such a way that only certain species are found on certain continents, and islands! Don't forget islands! Noah must have used the ship just to find all the animals. Must have taken a long, long time, too, unless he has Santa Claus "visit every Christian household in one night" super speed powers. Because "with God, all things are possible" means it doesn't have to make any sort of sense, and I'm a terrible person for thinking logically. That's evil and I'm going to hell.

Finally, if God has a divine plan, created me, and knows my heart, then he intended me to be a skeptical of him. He's also done a very good job of convincing me that he isn't real or he isn't involved at all. The crime of not believing in ancient mythology shouldn't be a perpetually damning offense. If there's one thing I know, more than anything else, is that not believing in something is NOT A CRIME.

[Rhyfelwyr]

There is no morally righteous God if it values blind faith over reason, and assigns EITHER of them a moral value. Faith nor reason are inherently good or bad. Plenty of men have faith and commit terrible atrocities, some men have reason (flawed reason) and commit terrible atrocities. Faith has nothing to do with morality. Then you get into the No True Scotsman argument- no Christians are evil because they accepted Christ, but those who commit evil didn't really accept Jesus into their heart.

In Christianity, neither faith nor reason are given any moral value in their own right. Also, you seem to use the no true Scotsman argument yourself, in that while you admit that reason can, like faith, lead to atrocities, you still went to the trouble of pointing out that it must be 'flawed reason'. So all the genocides in human history weren't caused by reason, it mustn't have been true reason, just flawed reason. Presuming you agree that 'atrocities' are morally bad, this also suggests that despite attacking Christianity for it, you yourself haven't in reality separated the concepts of reason/faith from morality, since you seem reluctant to ascribe bad things to pure reason (as opposed to 'flawed reason').

If the main selling point is that no matter what I do, as long as I accept Christ I get into heaven, and if I don't I am cast out, that right there tells me that the true value is the church coffers and the church pews never being empty. The main moral value in organized religion is money and political power.

Indeed, whatever you have done, if you accept Christ, then you are forgiven - I'm not ashamed of one of the core aspects of the faith.

Also, it is a massive generalisaton to say that the main moral value in organised religion is money and political power. You should really treat that on a denomination by denomination basis. What about the Plymouth Brethren that don't ask for a penny and say that if their faith isn't great enough for them to pay for a building then they shouldn't ask anyone to be there?

The flowery "we're all evil, just as bad as murderers, if we don't accept Christ" argument is total hooey. That means every person who lived before Christ is in hell.

You are making a lot of emotive statements regarding the concept of hell. But since the purpose of hell in Christianity rests upon what exactly human nature is, can you really base a solid, rational argument upon such a complex and untangible thing, and show convincingly that the concept of hell is theologically inconsistant?

If all else fails, Noah's ark. I urge someone to collect all the species in their own locality, nevermind the whole of the Earth, and build a ship and herd all the animals on it, and then after the flood is over, re-distribute them across the lands in such a way that only certain species are found on certain continents, and islands! Don't forget islands! Noah must have used the ship just to find all the animals. Must have taken a long, long time, too, unless he has Santa Claus "visit every Christian household in one night" super speed powers. Because "with God, all things are possible" means it doesn't have to make any sort of sense, and I'm a terrible person for thinking logically. That's evil and I'm going to hell.

How is this relevant to this thread?

Finally, if God has a divine plan, created me, and knows my heart, then he intended me to be a skeptical of him. He's also done a very good job of convincing me that he isn't real or he isn't involved at all. The crime of not believing in ancient mythology shouldn't be a perpetually damning offense. If there's one thing I know, more than anything else, is that not believing in something is NOT A CRIME.

Where do you get this idea that simply believing in the existence of God is what makes separates Christians from the rest?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

....Which isn't really relevant to the question of where he is now.

If he's in hell, then the christian god is evil in my opinion. If he's in heaven, there's no point in being a christian. If there's a third alternative, please explain...

Right, ok. It is relevent, because Ghandi's actions are de-valued if motivated by a belief in Indian superiority, which undermines your argument somewhat. Christianity is about turning towards God, rather than away from him. Those who do turn to God go to be with him when they die, those that don't, don't.

Whether Hell is actually a litteral pit or not is not that important. Hell is to be without God, which is to be without anything. I tend to think of it like screaming alone in the darkness for all eternity, without the comfort of darkness or the relief of being able to scream. Christianity isn't actually about Heaven and Hell, they are tangentile. Christianity is about the relationship between the individual and God.

You are complaining that Christianity would condemn Ghandi to an eternity without God, but by your own admission he wasn't interested in being with God to begin with.

It's not my intent to troll nice people who are religious, because it may offend them and that's not my intent. But I still feel like I can share my opinion, can I not? Spoiler'ed anyway to protect people's feelings.

If you genuinely don't want to offend then you might try moderating your tone and not hiding behind platitudes.

For me it is a moot point, because I cannot bring myself to think that a kind and loving creator being would burn me forever simply because I didn't blindly accept one man's opinion that he was God.

So, you don't want God, and you're complaining he doesn't want you?

It's sort of a contradiction in terms. The benevolent, merciful torturer of his own children.

How can you go to God when you die if you reject him with your dying breath?

There is no morally righteous God if it values blind faith over reason, and assigns EITHER of them a moral value.

He doesn't. So your statement is irrelevant.

Faith nor reason are inherently good or bad.

Patently obvious, point made repeatedly in the Bible.

Plenty of men have faith and commit terrible atrocities, some men have reason (flawed reason) and commit terrible atrocities. Faith has nothing to do with morality. Then you get into the No True Scotsman argument- no Christians are evil because they accepted Christ, but those who commit evil didn't really accept Jesus into their heart.

As Rhy rightly noted, you deploy No True Scotsman yourself. Faith in God is flawed because it is human. Humans stray and, when they do, commit Sin against God. A Christian is one who follows the teachings of the Christ, not one who is morally superior.

If the main selling point is that no matter what I do, as long as I accept Christ I get into heaven, and if I don't I am cast out, that right there tells me that the true value is the church coffers and the church pews never being empty. The main moral value in organized religion is money and political power.

Rubbish, because Christianity is not about Heaven and Hell. Some people do try to "sell" that, but the religion does not focus on Heaven and Hell, accept as the logical result of the state of the individual's relationship with God.

The flowery "we're all evil, just as bad as murderers, if we don't accept Christ" argument is total hooey.

Of course it is, that's why Christians don't use it.

That means every person who lived before Christ is in hell. Oh, but we can make exceptions, yes? Sure we can. See God made a special pact with everyone before Jesus, the old covenants and such. And those poor native Americans that never heard about Christ? Well they can't get into heaven but they can be judged on their merits and sent somewhere less bad than hell. Goody, so they are denied eternal paradise because they were born in the wrong place? Isn't that God's fault, not theirs?

I suggest you actually read some salvation Theology, sufficed to say Native Americans do not automatically go to Hell.

If all else fails, Noah's ark. I urge someone to collect all the species in their own locality, nevermind the whole of the Earth, and build a ship and herd all the animals on it, and then after the flood is over, re-distribute them across the lands in such a way that only certain species are found on certain continents, and islands! Don't forget islands! Noah must have used the ship just to find all the animals. Must have taken a long, long time, too, unless he has Santa Claus "visit every Christian household in one night" super speed powers. Because "with God, all things are possible" means it doesn't have to make any sort of sense, and I'm a terrible person for thinking logically. That's evil and I'm going to hell.

So, basically you want us all to by Biblical litteralists so that you can make fun of us. Sorry, it doesn't work like that; you have to deal with us as we are, not as your prejudice would have us be.

Finally, if God has a divine plan, created me, and knows my heart, then he intended me to be a skeptical of him. He's also done a very good job of convincing me that he isn't real or he isn't involved at all. The crime of not believing in ancient mythology shouldn't be a perpetually damning offense. If there's one thing I know, more than anything else, is that not believing in something is NOT A CRIME.S

I point you to Socrates here.

[KukriKhan]

Gandhi's ashes were poured into urns which were sent across India for memorial services. Most were immersed at the Sangam at Allahabad on 12 February 1948 but some were secretly taken away.[54] In 1997, Tushar Gandhi immersed the contents of one urn, found in a bank vault and reclaimed through the courts, at the Sangam at Allahabad.[54][55] On 30 January 2008 the contents of another urn were immersed at Girgaum Chowpatty by the family after a Dubai-based businessman had sent it to a Mumbai museum.[54] Another urn has ended up in a palace of the Aga Khan in Pune[54] (where he had been imprisoned from 1942 to 1944) and another in the Self-Realization Fellowship Lake Shrine in Los Angeles.[56] The family is aware that these enshrined ashes could be misused for political purposes but does not want to have them removed because it would entail breaking the shrines

So I submit: Ghandi (or rather: bits and pieces of him) is all over the place, including about 100 miles from me.

Where is his "soul" according to christian beliefs? Limbo, home of the innocent unbaptised and righteous. This place is similar in concept to svarga

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

All created beings are imperfect and thus have at least one sin to their record; but if one has generally led a pious life, one ascends to svarga, a temporary realm of enjoinment similar to Paradise, after a brief period of expiation in Hell and before the next reincarnation according to the law of karma.

, a sort of waiting room before reincarnation into the next life.

[HoreTore]

Right, ok. It is relevent, because Ghandi's actions are de-valued if motivated by a belief in Indian superiority, which undermines your argument somewhat. Christianity is about turning towards God, rather than away from him. Those who do turn to God go to be with him when they die, those that don't, don't.

Whether Hell is actually a litteral pit or not is not that important. Hell is to be without God, which is to be without anything. I tend to think of it like screaming alone in the darkness for all eternity, without the comfort of darkness or the relief of being able to scream. Christianity isn't actually about Heaven and Hell, they are tangentile. Christianity is about the relationship between the individual and God.

You are complaining that Christianity would condemn Ghandi to an eternity without God, but by your own admission he wasn't interested in being with God to begin with.

So..... Gandhi gets to burn in an eternity, or whatever other punishment your god decides to give him.

Thanks for the answer.

[Cute Wolf]

Still in hell MUHAHAHAHAHAHA the fool

Hell

According to what I learned when I was a christrian for many years(Baptist), he's burning in hell right now and will be for all eternity. Probaly by a demon with a british accent.

So..... Gandhi gets to burn in an eternity, or whatever other punishment your god decides to give him.

Thanks for the answer.

Same thing here... Gandhi suffer all eternity in hell, because he did reject God. In Reformed theology, he wasn't among the chosen, so he deserve to suffer all eternity in hell because of his sins.

Yeah, Jesus said no one can go to heaven except through believe in Him... and Gandhi doesn't believe Jesus, he just think that Jesus is a good morality teacher, but Gandhi doesn't believe he was the Messiah, the only way of Salvation. So that leave only one probability, the Holy Spirit didn't reveal the way of Salvation to him... So he deserve to be in hell, all eternity....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So..... Gandhi gets to burn in an eternity, or whatever other punishment your god decides to give him.

Thanks for the answer.

No, that isn't what I said at all. Take a look at some of the qualifiers in the post, and look at the rest of my posts in this thread.