Charlie Wilson 1933-2010

[Strike For The South]

You will be missed

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8509794.stm

You may know him better from this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHl-6uH8MUQ

[The Wizard]

Indeed. Wish we'd followed his vision post-war a little more.

[Centurion1]

Great man, him.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Alright, when will it be OK according to the Backroom rules to desecrate the memory of this fellow? If my list of grudges with him ran any longer, I would have to get something better than WinRAR to compress my files...



My apologies to all the people who inexplicably view him in such a comparatively positive light

[Crazed Rabbit]

After the funeral.

RIP, Charlie Wilson.

CR

[gaelic cowboy]

I liked the film but to be honest I know nothing about him

[Aemilius Paulus]

After the funeral.

Alright then. For now, rest in peace, Charlie.

[Strike For The South]

He gets buried in Arlington on the 23rd,

[Aemilius Paulus]

He gets buried in Arlington on the 23rd,

Huh? Why so long?


OK, this is unfunny. The old chap managed to spite me even in his death. You Texans are unbelievable .

[Strike For The South]

Huh? Why so long?


OK, this is unfunny. The old chap managed to spite me even in his death. You Texans are unbelievable .

We aim to please

[Centurion1]

Alright, when will it be OK according to the Backroom rules to desecrate the memory of this fellow? If my list of grudges with him ran any longer, I would have to get something better than WinRAR to compress my files...



My apologies to all the people who inexplicably view him in such a comparatively positive light

And here ladies and gentleman we have the perfect example of the bitter russian. it's okay you guys ended got second place.......

proxy wars for the world *woot woot*

seriously though lets wait for the funeral.

[Aemilius Paulus]

And here ladies and gentleman we have the perfect example of the bitter russian. it's okay you guys ended got second place.......

proxy wars for the world *woot woot*

No, that is but a part of my list. Mr. Wilson has much more he is accountable for.


EDIT: Not to mention, it would have been better for America if USSR turned Afghanistan into our own satellite nation. Can you guess why? Charlie Wilson was also a short-sighted, emotion-driven... Ermh, yeah, I should leave off the latter part. Constructive criticism is acceptable, right?

[Louis VI the Fat]

seriously though lets wait for the funeral.

Indeed. So do wait for the funeral with provocations.

As it is, it comes across as punching a guy in the face and then telling him there's no fighting allowed inside the house as you run to mama.

[Vladimir]

No, that is but a part of my list. Mr. Wilson has much more he is accountable for.


EDIT: Not to mention, it would have been better for America if USSR turned Afghanistan into our own satellite nation. Can you guess why? Charlie Wilson was also a short-sighted, emotion-driven... Ermh, yeah, I should leave off the latter part. Constructive criticism is acceptable, right?

Bested again.

I await his burial with baited breath. This will be fun.

[PanzerJaeger]

And here ladies and gentleman we have the perfect example of the bitter russian. it's okay you guys ended got second place.......

proxy wars for the world *woot woot*

seriously though lets wait for the funeral.

Ahh!

And here I was thinking "what in the world could Charlie Wilson have done to Aemilius Paulus to register such emotion?"

[Major Robert Dump]

I really liked is line of Peanut Brittle, it was top-notch

[Aemilius Paulus]

And here ladies and gentleman we have the perfect example of the bitter russian. it's okay you guys ended got second place.......

Oh yeah, don't worry, I can still console myself with the US casualties in Afghanistan

[Centurion1]

As it is, it comes across as punching a guy in the face and then telling him there's no fighting allowed inside the house as you run to mama.

cheap? yes. do i regret it. oh no.

and ap thats just sick man, very sick.

[CrossLOPER]

Oh yeah, don't worry, I can still console myself with the US casualties in Afghanistan

Shed your tiny black tears. They're serious about not pissing on open graves here.

[Aemilius Paulus]

and ap thats just sick man, very sick.

Oh yeah? Nice that you got it. That is precisely what I wanted you or some other unsuspecting Backroomer to say. Oh yes. Because it is hypocritical to cheer on Mr. Wilson while he killed young Soviet boys and then call me 'sick' when I take satisfaction in seeing young American boys die in Afghanistan today (who die in part thanks to Mr. Wilson, and with no Russian aid to the Taliban - which we have the moral right to do, if we reckon by the logic Mr. Wilson used).

I do not cheer on USSR when someone mentions that we supplied weapons to the North Vietnam - it was dirty, sick politics, even if it was a natural thing to do for superpowers to supply weapons to the enemies of the opposing superpower. But you seem to have a more positive opinion in regards to US funding of Mujahideen...

Do you get it now? I knew you were likely to answer 'that's just sick', but it nevertheless makes my blood simmer that you did say so, just from its sheer hypocrisy. Because blind nationalism sucks, and you can also ask HoreTore - I am sure he will tell you his opinion on nationalism. I do not take joy from seeing politicians fund murder. I am not proud of the aid we sent to North Vietnam - on the contrary, it causes sorrow for me. It is a shame I cannot say the same of you.

[Strike For The South]

You assume that we honor Mr.Wilson because he killed Soviets.

Edit: Cmon Cen, I could see that bait a mile away. You'd make a terrible bass

[Aemilius Paulus]

You assume that we honor Mr.Wilson because he killed Soviets.

I do not assume, I know. Of course, far from all honour him because of that - and there are other things this bloke did, but most acknowledge his role in Afghanistan as a positive contribution (and many, many more liked him because of this before US stuck its own in the mess in Afghanistan.

Edit: Cmon Cen, I could see that bait a mile away. You'd make a terrible bass

Pffft, hindsight 20/20. I am wondering how you are still posting when by all accounts your computer monitor should be broken by now, due to the exponential increase in the length of your nose...

And I will point out that it was not baiting, or at least not in the SFTS sense - since my post was a bait in its function. People get warnings or infractions as a result of your baits, which are often pointless - other than for the sake of your amusement - I can see no other reason than that (well, some other people might laugh, alright, I will give that to you). In fact, my first-ever warning was a result of your bait (Do you prefer subtitled or translated movies? thread in the Frontroom). I put that statement for the sake of an effective political argument, to open up the minds of those who probably needed it - example, Centurion1. Of course, at the cost of momentarily disgusting others, but that is what I am willing to pay.




EDIT: To prove my point about people liking Mr. Wilson, how else do you explain this statement:

it's okay you guys ended got second place.......

proxy wars for the world *woot woot*


Damn me if this is not a person who supports Mr. Wilson for his contribution to the Soviet deaths in Afghanistan. You can wax lyrical all you want about how the poster was not serious, but how can a person sorry for the deaths can make a joke about dead soldiers, a joke which supports their deaths? Once again, damn me if that is not a US 'patriot'. Like I said, blind nationalism sucks, to put it in crude terms.







EDIT2: The intro paragraph in his Wikipedia page:

Charles Nesbitt Wilson (June 1, 1933 – February 10, 2010) was a former United States naval officer and former 12-term Democratic United States Representative from the 2nd congressional district in Texas.

He was best known for leading Congress into supporting Operation Cyclone, the largest-ever CIA covert operation, which under the Reagan administration supplied military equipment, including anti-aircraft weapons such as Stinger antiaircraft missiles, and paramilitary officers from their Special Activities Division to the Afghan Mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. His behind-the-scenes campaign was the subject of the non-fiction book Charlie Wilson's War by George Crile III [1] and a subsequent film adaptation starring Tom Hanks, Amy Adams, Julia Roberts and Philip Seymour Hoffman. [1]


Fraaaack, Americans even made a film glorifying his contributions in Afghanistan??? How much easier do you guys have to make my argument? As General Patton said, the argument 'Americans honour Mr.Wilson because he killed Soviets is just a wrong assumption' cannot fight its own way out of a urine-soaked paper bag

If anything, Wikipedia is the No. 1 authority on what people are best known for. And his page does not even mention any of his other accomplishments, other than the standard 'which are the highest offices this bloke held'. I can bet a dollar to doughnut that 98% of the non-Texan Americans cannot say anything more about Mr. Wilson than that Wiki intro paragraph.

[Strike For The South]

I do not assume, I know. Of course, far from all honour him because of that - and there are other things this bloke did, but most acknowledge his role in Afghanistan as a positive contribution (and many, many more liked him because of this before US stuck its own in the mess in Afghanistan.

One can still recognize what he did in Afghanistan while simultaneously realizing that people did die and it was a tragedy and no one one should be "counting points" so to speak. The two are not mutually exclussive nor have they ever been or ever will be such is the human condition.

Pffft, hindsight 20/20. I am wondering how you are still posting when by all accounts your computer monitor should be broken by now, due to the exponential increase in the length of your nose...

A pinocchio reference? nice

And I will point out that it was not baiting, or at least not in the SFTS sense - since my post was a bait in its function. People get warnings or infractions as a result of your baits, which are often pointless - other than for the sake of your amusement - I can see no other reason than that (well, some other people might laugh, alright, I will give that to you). In fact, my first-ever warning was a result of your bait (Do you prefer subtitled or translated movies? thread in the Frontroom). I put that statement for the sake of an effective political argument, to open up the minds of those who probably needed it - example, Centurion1. Of course, at the cost of momentarily disgusting others, but that is what I am willing to pay.

To assume my baits have no purpose is an egregious error on any ones parts. I simply think me and you have different posting styles, you like long academic style posts while I feel much more is said in what you don't write down than what you do.

conciseness is a great skill to have

Edit: And it was a bait, you knew the kind of reaction you wanted and went fishing, don't be ashamed.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Edit: And it was a bait, you knew the kind of reaction you wanted and went fishing, don't be ashamed.

Yah, I know. Why do you say so? I admitted this in the post. I just had to justify it to the moderator. Baiting is normally a negative thing which the mods pursue (not in a good way obviously).


Hehe, nice one, 'went fishing'

conciseness is a great skill to have

Oh, you can bet I agree with you. But just as I take detailed posts to the extreme, so you take the concise posts to the extreme. My posts are unnecessarily and tiringly long, and your posts are not long enough to well elaborate your position and argument. Throwing words around with no explanations is just as ineffective as writing posts so long that few read them. We both need to work to improve out styles.

[Aemilius Paulus]

So what happened to the freedom fighters in Afghanistan? There were so, so many of them just twenty years ago... They could not have all died or disappeared so fast, could they?

Now I turn on the telly and hear of nothing but terrorists . No wonder US went to punish those people. Afghanistan was such a great country with so many freedom fighters before those damned terrorist took over and killed of the good freedom fighters.





Do I remember something about Mr. Wilson saying 'pay back the Soviets'??

[The Wizard]

Charlie Wilson helped strike a blow for people who had legitimate reasons to take up arms against Soviet imperialism. His commitment to Afghanistan went beyond mere power politics considering he was one of the very few advocating aid to the country to help it rebuild after the Soviet withdrawal had sealed the U.S.'s victory. There is far less to hate about this democratically elected Congressman than there is about Soviet technocrats and dictators funding the NVA.

[Centurion1]

EDIT: To prove my point about people liking Mr. Wilson, how else do you explain this statement:

it's okay you guys ended got second place.......

proxy wars for the world *woot woot*


Damn me if this is not a person who supports Mr. Wilson for his contribution to the Soviet deaths in Afghanistan. You can wax lyrical all you want about how the poster was not serious, but how can a person sorry for the deaths can make a joke about dead soldiers, a joke which supports their deaths? Once again, damn me if that is not a US 'patriot'. Like I said, blind nationalism sucks, to put it in crude terms.

I assumed the woot woot would imply to joking nature of the comment. Do i support the deaths of the Soviet soldiers? I support the tactical reasoning behind it even if I do not wish for human lives to be wasted. Charlie Wilson's help in this matter helped bring the Soviet Union to it's knees. It would be hypocritical for anyone who knows my politics to say i was not pleased with that.

sure i wish there was a way no soviet soldiers died. But what i found classless about your post was the fact that you consoled yourself as if one death made the other better. One life doesn't excuse another.

So know i do not feel as though i am celebrating the deaths of soviet union soldiers by celebrating this mans memory. I am celebrating the fall of the soviet union one step further.

[Major Robert Dump]

Charlie Wilson was a spawn of the Cold War. I think most people who did not live the Cold War would not quite truly understand people's mentality for or against it. It really was unique, and Charlie Wilson played it well to help win. Not taking an opinion on the man one way or the other, but he certainly accomplished what he set out to do.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I assumed the woot woot would imply to joking nature of the comment.

Yah, I addressed this already. You would call me a sicko if I joked about the dead American soldiers, but joking about dead Soviet soldiers is perfectly fine... The fact that you admit you were joking only shows that 1:you fell into my another bait/trap and 2: your comment was even more disturbing because you actually say it was a joke as if that makes it better, when in reality, it only makes it worse.

I support the tactical reasoning behind it even if I do not wish for human lives to be wasted.

Translation: I wanted to give the Ruskies a kick in the teeth and I would rather overlook the fact that largely innocent people were killed through my actions (srsly, very few wanted to get drafted for the Afghan War).

Your defence is paper thin and your justification is one that anyone could make. 'Tactical reasoning'. Right. Nice to say that when your father was not involved in it, and when you people are not the ones killed, and when you are not the one being shot at. In fact, your justification is the exact sort dictators love to make:

Oh yah, I killed a bunch of millions of people, and I hate to waste humans, but we won WWII, so the 'tactical reasoning' reasoning supports my choices - says Stalin. And believe me, he did hate to waste the human resource. He was a paranoid man, but he was not a stupid man. Gulags were far from death camps. Instead, they were camps thoroughly designed to get the most work for the least cost from the zeks.

Charlie Wilson's help in this matter helped bring the Soviet Union to it's knees.

That only shows how little you know about Soviet Union. I am not even going to argue this, because you need to read books. Any mainstream Soviet-expert author will tell you that the Soviet economy was growing all throughout and until its very end. It was not the economy that was the problem, and the military expenditures had very little impact. Reagan's defence ramping-ups go out of the window for the same reason.

It would be hypocritical for anyone who knows my politics to say i was not pleased with that.

Wow, you just admitted it, huh? Hot damn, who would have expected you to say that? So how is it 'wow, just sick' when I say the same thing about you Americans? If it is my politics to view any decrease in power of the US, then why can I not say that I accept American deaths as their deaths conform with 'my politics'? You do realise this goes both ways, right?

If you approve of the deaths of youngsters to justify your 'politics', (whatever the heck they are since you said you said you do not like/do not involve yourself at all in politics) then wow... I mean, politics is such an abstract and apt to change attribute. You will change your politics as you grow up (you and me are still teens, of course we will change), but nothing can change the lives of those who died. That is why I do not pretend I approve of the Americans who died in Vietnam, however much that favoured my motherland.

sure i wish there was a way no soviet soldiers died.

Right, but you still think they should have died... You know, this excuse is not worth the bytes which it is encoded into...

But what i found classless about your post was the fact that you consoled yourself as if one death made the other better.

Yah, and that was obviously a bait to make you think, otherwise I would not attack you right now. Shoot, why do you think I am making all these arguments?? I posted that to make you see the error of your reasoning, and you are still blind to it. You still think it was wrong for me to say that (forget the fact I do not believe in what I said in that post) despite not caring about Soviet deaths, because they are obviously the bad guys who deserved it...

One life doesn't excuse another.

That is exactly one of the points I was trying to make. But you are still applying it to me, whereas you are still the one... Argh, you are either making a massive troll-post or shockingly insensitive to any other viewpoints save yours...

So know i do not feel as though i am celebrating the deaths of soviet union soldiers by celebrating this mans memory. I am celebrating the fall of the soviet union one step further.

Again, translation: I am a teenager with strong political views and I support any efforts to carry out those views, conveniently ignoring the skulls and bones paving the path to success... (Once again ignoring that the Soviet debacle at Afghanistan did not do much to bring USSR down)

Bollox, that view is clearly celebrating the death of the soldiers, no matter what it feels like. That view is simply excusing itself by conveniently sanitising the dancing over the graves by using a different phrase. I can do the same by avoiding stating that I support American deaths in Afghanistan by instead claiming I look forward to lessening the US global influence...

That man stands for death of Soviet citizens. Bin Laden stands for the death of US citizens (if you do not think the Afghan 'freedom fighter' Mujahideen killed innocent civilians like Bin Laden, then you are dead wrong). One cannot celebrate the man without celebrating he deaths he caused. I can claim I celebrate Bin Laden because he leads the crusade against modern American meddling, imperialism, Bush-era thuggery, but I still end up celebrating the deaths he caused. Same with Mr. Wilson. Even if we take out 9/11 away from the Bin Laden persona.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Charlie Wilson helped strike a blow for people who had legitimate reasons to take up arms against Soviet imperialism.

So you are admitting USSR had the right to help the North Vietnam? I would take them before the Mujahideen, and even now we can see the result of a communist Vietnam vs Taleban Aghanistan.

His commitment to Afghanistan went beyond mere power politics considering he was one of the very few advocating aid to the country to help it rebuild after the Soviet withdrawal had sealed the U.S.'s victory.

And? A right does not make another wrong right, and I seriously doubt he was advocating the aid from altruistic reasons. If he was worth his salt, then he could have possibly recognised the danger of a devastated Afghanistan in the hands of radical Muslims...

There is far less to hate about this democratically elected Congressman than there is about Soviet technocrats and dictators funding the NVA.

When did I say that I liked Soviet technocrats? Does the existence of greater evils absolve a smaller evil and shield him from criticism? This thread, IIRC, was about Mr. Wilson, and not the Soviet tecnocrats/NVA...