A question about guard mode with phalanx pikemen

[mrjade06]

When do I want guard mode on with the pikemen versus off? And when would I want it on for hoplites? Thanks a lot

[Andy1984]

For pike units: Guard mode on will pin the enemy down. It is most advisable if you are outnumbered or outclassed and need time for flanking manoeuvres. It is also an excellent choice if you are defending a single city street against several units. Your pikes will kill less enemies but they manage to hold their formation better, thus taking less casualties (which buys you time).

Guard mode off makes your pike units more agressive. They are more likely to break up their formation (even switching to their secondary weapon) and to advance towards the enemy should a gap between your line and his line be created. This can be the case when your opponent flees. I use guard mode off:
(1) when cavalry has broken up my formation (and there is no more hope my pikes can push enemy cavalry back)
(2) when charging with secondary weapons into someone's flank (obvious)
(3) when my pikes are being attacked in their flanks or back (putting guard mode off makes them turn faster - put it on when you think they'll lower their pikes towards the enemy)
(4) or in a pike-vs-pike attack where I need to push quickly through an enemy syntagma. This last strategy, which is only advisable if your flanks are secured and if your fighting on open terrain against low-end-pikeunits, will cost you more casualties but it might speed up casualties on your opponents side (and thus give the enemy less time to flank you). If I have any choice at all, in any kind of pike-vs-pikefight, I choose the guard mode on (taking less casualties and hoping my flanks last sufficiently long). One last note: attacking AI-falanxes have (as far as I remember) guard mode put off.

Since I don't deploy hoplites that often, I can't give you any tips on them. Maybe someone else can.

kind regards,

Andy

[mrjade06]

Thanks a lot...I have been using pike units awhile and never really took guard mode off until recently, and when I did I began to take some horrific casualties. But thank you very much for explaining exactly how and to use it and not to.

[stratigos vasilios]

I think I remember reading somewhere that when your defending city walls, the pike units on the wall should have guard mode turned off? I can't remember why or how it's more effective, (hopefully someone can jump in here). Sorry it's a useless reply, but I guess someone can maybe help me out now :P

[Andy1984]

I've never used pike units on walls, but it makes sense. Pikes that have guard mode off are more likely to follow an opponent (that is standing next and not only in front of the soldier), while they move towards their opponents if they've killed the first row. If they wouldn't attack these guys, they'd be subject to first strikes of their opponents, thereby taking more casualties. Fighting on a wall is just a very specific case of an attack in the flanks (where you're forced to use your secondary weapons).

[mrjade06]

yeah I've never used pike units on walls so that wasnt the issue. Something that drives me crazy about pike units is when the ai walks cavalry (not even good cavalry either mind you) right into them and then just starts mauling them, I was hoping having guard mode off would do something to help that. As for the hoplites I still havent decided how to truly use them effectively. I only started playing EB 2 weeks ago (unfortunately) despite playing RTW and various other mods for years on end, so I'm basically a little lost on what to do with them to use them effectively...whether to stand and take a charge from the enemy, charge themselves and whether to have guard mode on or off on them. Thanks for all the advice so far.

[Cambyses]

As a general rule, low lethality = guard mode on, high lethality = guard mode off. Frontal attack = guard mode on, flanking = guard mode off.

A Hoplite unit's greatest strength is its durability and strong defensive qualities with the tight formation. Guard mode keeps them in that formation. Although it does of course depend on what you are fighting.

[Weebeast]

Since I don't deploy hoplites that often, I can't give you any tips on them. Maybe someone else can.

I think it works the same for all unit. Every single man in a unit stays in their position and only fight when the enemy soldier engages him. The purpose of guard mode is to take less casualty while inflicting less at the same time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I actually use guard mode on all spears that I specifically train to hold my line. I turn it off only if I know my lighter troops (or whatever is the designated flankers/ wingmen) can't finish their job and thus unable to flank the units attacking my spears/pikes.

[vartan]

As a general rule, low lethality = guard mode on, high lethality = guard mode off. Frontal attack = guard mode on, flanking = guard mode off.

A Hoplite unit's greatest strength is its durability and strong defensive qualities with the tight formation. Guard mode keeps them in that formation. Although it does of course depend on what you are fighting.

OP should look into this reply by Cambyses. It is well-said, regardless of the fact that it is generalization.
Frontally, I see no use in having a lowered-pike phalanx turn guard off--it only makes you lose men.

As for hoplites, defensively the guard mode allows them to hold their ground for longer amounts of time, wearing down enemy troops, which will eventually rout given enough time. If you are attacking frontally with hoplites, offensively that is, you will want to take guard off. When attacking, you look to kill, not simply tire. In one specific game, my imperial Roman army was losing from the front and in the center, because Saka heavy hoplites were pushing with guard off (a bit more staggered than a block, but very offensive and very clearly deadly; think of the scenes in 300 when the men break formation and all hell breaks loose). If it weren't for my flanking maneuvers, that battle would have been Saka's for the taking.

[mrjade06]

Once again thanks all for the advice. One thing that I can not quite understand is when in heavy combat, my pike units tend to get seperated occasionally and I will have a guy from the phalanx 'fighting' the whole way across the map by himself and will not rejoin the formation. Any pointer on how to prevent this or get them to properly regroup and reform?

[Epimetheus]

I usually start my hoplites out in guard mode, except when on walls. I then wait for the enemy troops to show their first signs of fatigue. At that moment, when the enemy troops are fatigued, but mine are still fresh, I release the guard mode and push back. The difference in fatigue allows me to kill the enemy troops much more quickly.

[Silence Hunter]

Once again thanks all for the advice. One thing that I can not quite understand is when in heavy combat, my pike units tend to get seperated occasionally and I will have a guy from the phalanx 'fighting' the whole way across the map by himself and will not rejoin the formation. Any pointer on how to prevent this or get them to properly regroup and reform?

Thats called the "phalanx bug". It was corrected in RTW 1.9 (Alex.exe). It's very annoying especially if you are playing phalanx based factions. There is no guaranteed way to prevent it, but grouping your phalanx units together and pressing Backspace often when phalanx is engaged usually helps to prevent it from happening. However for this to work your phalanxes must be with guard mode on, othervise ordering them to stop will cost you extra casualties.

[vartan]

Thats called the "phalanx bug". It was corrected in RTW 1.9 (Alex.exe). It's very annoying especially if you are playing phalanx based factions. There is no guaranteed way to prevent it, but grouping your phalanx units together and pressing Backspace often when phalanx is engaged usually helps to prevent it from happening. However for this to work your phalanxes must be with guard mode on, othervise ordering them to stop will cost you extra casualties.

That's another reason to play single player EB through the RTW 1.9 engine (alx executable). This is pretty much the number 1 reason I use it for single player. You don't see it used in multiplayer because it just hasn't come up as a major issue in MP games and it's not THAT much of a difference (and would require every single MP player to mod their EB installs to play with alx engine).

[mrjade06]

See I have alex but I have been using BI to play EB ad I'm just ot sure if the benefits of using alex.exe would outweigh the benefits with using BI.exe. After I finish my macedon campaign I will have to give alex a try. One major thing worries me however about alex: why does the cpu refuse to do naval invasions? from what i heard the alex ai will ot perform them and that is the major stumbling block preventing me from switching over to it.

[vartan]

See I have alex but I have been using BI to play EB ad I'm just ot sure if the benefits of using alex.exe would outweigh the benefits with using BI.exe. After I finish my macedon campaign I will have to give alex a try. One major thing worries me however about alex: why does the cpu refuse to do naval invasions? from what i heard the alex ai will out* perform them and that is the major stumbling block preventing me from switching over to it.

Who cares? The only major naval invasion that even mattered was Xerxes. Did Pyrrhus travel over to Italy by way of ship? That can count too, if so. But other than that, forget it. Why do you think ships are so expensive in EB anyway? Welcome to real life in EB, haha. It's quite ironic and funny too that you're waiting to finish a MACEDONIAN campaign before switching to Alex engine. It's fine, just stick to engine 1.6 (BI), unless you plan on playing further with other pike factions. That 1.9 may come in handy if you really love those pikes in your campaigns. As for MP, don't fret. Problem hasn't been exaggerated to any extreme yet in any battle that I know of (and I played one a few nights ago, as Epeiros against Rome; no problem at all).

[mrjade06]

You are joking right that Xerxes' was the only major naval invasion of the classical period...I can name a bunch off of the top of my head:Caesars invasion of Britain, Roman invasions of North Africa leading up to the Battle of Zama, the entire first punic war, the siege of Syracuse by Athens during the Peloponnesian war, the aforementioned invasion by Pyrrhos, attempted naval invasions by Macedon during the first Macedonian war just to name ones off of the top of my head. Im just not a fan of not having them on because casse never gets touched unless by the human player, and Koinon Hellenon gets stuck on rhodes etc etc...Its just enough to keep some me honest a bit playing as some factions (example carthage with corsica and sardinia).

[JinandJuice]

Guys, please, this is turning into another "is Alex better" argument. Our original topic was, as we can all see, guard mode with phalanx pikemen.

Since we have pretty much covered phalangites though, let me actually be extremely hypocritical and talk about guard mode with underhanded spearmen. I actually tested this earlier today. Spearmen on guard mode is significantly more powerful than off guard mode. a unit of Triarii vs Classical Hoplites had a 7:3 kdr on guard mode (not including chasing routed troops), vs 6:4 kdr off guard mode. I assume this is due to the 2 lines of spears protruding through the first line when in formation, but it is undeniable that spearmen work best in formation.

[WinsingtonIII]

I have to agree with jinandjuice. Spearmen in general perform best in guard mode. It does not matter if they are overhand or underhand, guard mode is in general the best setting for spears.

[vartan]

It's mostly due to their spears having such a lower lethality relative to other weapon types. And do you really expect the AI to pull off invasions of the historic types mentioned? That sounds more like expecting a reenactment.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

It's mostly due to their spears having such a lower lethality relative to other weapon types. And do you really expect the AI to pull off invasions of the historic types mentioned? That sounds more like expecting a reenactment.

I've seen some pretty impressive naval invasions in my campaign, not two-unit armies or anything of the sort. Rome and Carthage in particular; they each traded all of the Western Mediterranean islands countless times, Rome landed a full stack in Epeiros, Carthage landed a full stack in Italy and also landed three 3/4 stacks at Massylia against me. Makedonia invaded and conquered Kyrene, Taras and Krete and the Saba invaded and subjugated Numidia, and there was quite a tussle between the Seleukidai and Ptolemaioi over Cypress.

[SwissBarbar]

Actually it's quite simple. If the enemy attacks you, and you need to hold your ground, put guard mode on. It's a defensive mode. If you are attacking the enemy put it off (f.e. if the enemy has enganged your line, which was on guard mode, and now you want to order your soldiers to push foreward... put it off). Never use it on walls