yeah I've never used pike units on walls so that wasnt the issue. Something that drives me crazy about pike units is when the ai walks cavalry (not even good cavalry either mind you) right into them and then just starts mauling them, I was hoping having guard mode off would do something to help that. As for the hoplites I still havent decided how to truly use them effectively. I only started playing EB 2 weeks ago (unfortunately) despite playing RTW and various other mods for years on end, so I'm basically a little lost on what to do with them to use them effectively...whether to stand and take a charge from the enemy, charge themselves and whether to have guard mode on or off on them. Thanks for all the advice so far.