Cav balance

[antisocialmunky]

How is the team planning on balancing horses in EBII? The EB cav balance has been brought up several times in the EB forum so I thought that I should ask. Basically, Cataphracts beat every other horse type when they probably shouldn't be so deadly in hth where their armor weighs them down.

Shouldn't it instead be:
- Kataphracts are extremely powerful charges but aren't that good in melee due to all their armor.
- Heavy cavalry like Companions should have very powerful charges and be good in melee and fast.
- Medium cavalry is good in melee and very fast.
- Light cavalry is very fast.

So the balance would be:
- Kataphracts destroy everything they charge at
- Kataphracts are beaten in melee by Heavy Cavalry
- Medium Cavalry can beat both for cost
- Light Cavalry is just fast

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

You posted at the wrong forum fellow.

[Cute Wolf]

Im quite interested when you say that heavy cavalry will beat cataphracts in melee, well beating cataphracts in a full clad armour, while you wear nearly full-clad armour... is rather depends on skills. And if u play them, cataphracts aren't invincible, every ap units that has enough defense to buy some time against their charge, usually ends up eating them. With notable exception is Griphanvar, who had extremely lethal melee wapons, but even the Saka cataphracts still capable to deal with them if in secondary sagaris mode...

[antisocialmunky]

No, they are not invincible. Infact they get hacked apart by AP. The issue was raised in an earlier thread about cataphracts and I was wondering if hte EBII balance would be adjusted in the future.

[Cute Wolf]

No, they are not invincible. Infact they get hacked apart by AP. The issue was raised in an earlier thread about cataphracts and I was wondering if hte EBII balance would be adjusted in the future.

Oh, maybe u mistake my bad english, soory. I state that any ap units who had enough defense to buy time, usually ends up defeating the cataphracts. As u can try, try drapanai vs Saka cataphracts, and u can look a really hoorible death.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Are you kidding, my unupgraded Thrakian choppers moved down a full unit of Hellenic Kataphracts (50 men) while suffering 2 out of 60 casualties. The catas routed upon going down to 18 men. I timed it, and it took 8 seconds. Eight fluffing seconds!!! It felt like vanilla with its insanely expedient combat.

Custom battle it was. 1 unit vs 1 unit. Elite of the elite vs elite of the elite. The Drapnai or the Bastarnae would not do too much worse. My Pedites Extraordianrii did the same to Armenian cataphracts while suffering four casualties. AP infantry

So the balance would be:
- Kataphracts destroy everything they charge at
- Kataphracts are beaten in melee by Heavy Cavalry

That is quite difficult to implement. Fatigue was the main weakness of the cataphracts. Knights had it too. Mainly the horses that is, of the knights, as even the ultra-heavy chargers of the Mediaeval times would be conserved until the enemy was less than 80-100 metres away. So difficult was the knight and the barding for the horse to carry. But in the Eastern deserts, the men will suffer rather quickly too.

Thus, the cataphracts would still have a great deal of armour in comparison to other heavy cavalry. Speed does not matter much in RTW, and it seems there are only about three different horsemen speeds in EB. In conclusion, the catas' heavy armour will carry them through any melee battle.

The only possible solution is to significantly lower the cataphract melee attack, but I do not know how accurate that is. I mean, sure they have bulky and unwieldy armour, but still, they were effective fighters, were they not? Also, the charge bonus does not seem to work as it should after about 30-40, as I see little difference in the numbers. Heck, RTR has even larger bonuses, and they do little good...




Crap! I left this post for an hour without posting it! Now, with the new replies, my post is half outdated!

[Cute Wolf]

Well, ap, Thraikioi Rhompaiakoi are elite and well armoured, something that save them from early death against Cataphract charges and melee weapons. Even your Pedites extraordinarii are capable to tear down the living battering ram easily, except when the Catas are quickly withdrawn and repeat their charges. But the Drapanai ad only 13 crappy defense... and if u try, 50++ out of 80 of them didn't survive the first charge, if the cats land their charges properly.

And now, going into some scientific and historical arguments, if the Cataphracts are bad at melee combats, why the latter Sassanids and Byzantines employ Clibinarii that exclusively rely on their mace as "Meat-Grinder", knowing if their enemies had faced them for years, they will just equip them with a good mace and stone.

[Watchman]

The OP argument does not make sense. Charge and shock combat were most specifically what the whole cataphract concept was for and the specific reason they wore a metric f***ton of armour - basically eliminating the normal weakness of mounted trops in extended hand-to-hand combat, namely the squishiness of the horse.

It's not like the lack of tactical agility caused by the weight of armour, and the eventual very dense formations whose chief purpose was to avoid individual horsemen becoming isolated and flanked, left too much alternatives anyay.

If lighter-armed heavy cav wanted to beat tanks like these, they had to do so by exploiting their greater mobility to pin down the cataphracts in close combat with part of their force and using the rest to mount repeated charges against their flanks. This is more or less what the Mac right wing did with the Bactrian and Saka armoured cavalry at Gaugamela, for example.
Trying to beat the heavier horse in drawn out hand-to-hand fighting, their very area of specialty, was obviously a pretty losing proposition.

[Apázlinemjó]

Well, ap, Thraikioi Rhompaiakoi are elite and well armoured, something that save them from early death against Cataphract charges and melee weapons. Even your Pedites extraordinarii are capable to tear down the living battering ram easily, except when the Catas are quickly withdrawn and repeat their charges. But the Drapanai ad only 13 crappy defense... and if u try, 50++ out of 80 of them didn't survive the first charge, if the cats land their charges properly.

And now, going into some scientific and historical arguments, if the Cataphracts are bad at melee combats, why the latter Sassanids and Byzantines employ Clibinarii that exclusively rely on their mace as "Meat-Grinder", knowing if their enemies had faced them for years, they will just equip them with a good mace and stone.

Against AI you can set your Drapani to loose formation, they survive the impact of the charge, then set it back to tight and hack 'n slash. Of course against player this wouldn't work and in reality, I'm sure that the Drapanai would rout even before the tanks hit them.