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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Treaty of Versailles - Modern Reappraisal

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Then they had a treaty imposed on them at gunpoint.
    I think you'll find this has been the case ever since Knut the Cavemen waved his large club around and told Ugh-Ugh that no, he can not have the impala.

    Or, just about every war is ended at gunpoint. Of course Germany had a surrender imposed on them at gunpoint. 'Pointing guns' at each other, sometimes even actually pulling the trigger and shooting at the other, is exactly what war is.
    It is part of the bizarre Versailles lore that Germany was terribly injusticed simply by being subjected to the most basic principles of war.

    ~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking
    In fairness, the Armistice was based on Wilson’s 14 Points. Germany Agreed to them all.
    No, this is simply not true.

    Germany's surrender was not based on Wilson's Fourteen Points. Consequently, Germany neither agreed to them, nor had any reason to expect them.

    Incidentally, tentative peace offers based on the fourteen points were offered in early 1918, which Germany did not accept, because it still hoped to win the war.

    ~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~


    I am still curious - would these 21 points be at all aceptable as a Treaty, as conduct to make a workable peace?


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis' 21 Points for 'Peace without Victory'

    Preamble





    1 The French original of this Treaty is the only authoritative one. English, German and other translations to be without legal consequence.


    2 Germany requests, and the allies confirm, that Germany shall retain its place as Europe’s largest power.






    Reconstruction Costs





    1 – There shall be no demands of reparations.


    2- Germany does not have to pay costs of any kind for the allied military expenditures, or any costs of the war effort.


    3 - There shall be only financial claims for reconstructing civil damages


    3a- An exception shall be made for the UK. Britain, having sustained no direct civil damges, but facing large pension and disability costs as a result of the war, shall receive a large share of the costs for reconstruction meant for France and Belgium


    4 – The costs for reconstruction shall take into account civil damages on all sides, on both sides of the border, including Germany


    5 – These reconstruction costs, for both sides of the border, shall be split between the allies and Germany.


    6 – These costs must be limited to a small sum


    7 – These costs must not be based on actual damage, but on what any of the parties can pay, so as not to obstruct economic recovery. We must look forward, not backward



    8 – To prop up Germany, these reconstruction costs shall be divided thus: allies to pay 95%, Germany to pay 5%


    9 – To help Germany pay for reconstruction costs, it shall receive aid amounting to 150% of what it will pay towards reconstruction of war damages. That is, for every DM Germany pays, it will receive 1.5DM.




    War Guild



    7 – There shall be no War Guilt clause, only a legal-technical framework setting and limiting legal liability for reconstruction costs.



    Colonial Possessions



    8 – Only foreign possesions that have been colonised in the three decades before WWI shall be taken away from Germany.


    9 – No foreign possessions with meaningful German settlement shall be taken


    10 – The entire amount of German nationals affected by territorial transfer must be limited to no more than 20.000, worldwide.




    Territorial Changes



    10 – German territorial integrity shall be respected. There shall be no split up of Germany.


    12 – Annexetion of German territory to the victorious states must be based on Wilson’s Fourteen Points, in particular points six to fourteen


    13 – In the west, transfer of territory must be striclty limited those territories which have been annexed by Germany since 1864. Traditional German lands must remain unaffected


    14 – These territorial transfers must be in accordance with the wishes of the population affected.


    15 - An exception to article 13 and 14 shall be made for Belgium. Belgium, whose neutrality was violated and suffered severly, shall be compensated territorially. This compensation will be limited to the two tiny rural villages of Eupen and Malmedy.


    16 – In the east, with few exceptions, annexations must be limited to territories of overwhelming and traditional Polish majority




    To Make and Retain the Peace



    17 – The provisions in this treaty bear a temporary, comditional character. In due time, Germany shall be relieved of its obligations


    18 – A United Nations shall be established. This institution shall deal with any disputes arising from this treaty in a peaceful manner.


    19 This UN shall be empowered to deal with future conflicts. Reason and the rule of law, not the might of the victors of WWI, shall govern international relations.


    20 – This United Nations shall be based in Geneva, Switzerland, and not in the territory of any of the victorious states


    21 – Germany shall be made a full member of this UN no later than seven years after this treaty, to ensure Germany’s interests as a restored Great Power will be looked after.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 02-24-2010 at 18:33.
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