Treaty of Versailles - Modern Reappraisal

[Louis VI the Fat]

Don't hate the French. Just wasn't the British Empires business to get involved in that war. Germany smashes France, Germany is the biggest power in Europe, Britain trades with a more powerful Germany, not the end of the world. I don't like Germany any better than France. I've find all European imperial powers of the era distasteful.

Fortunately for our little discussion, Britain's strategical position after a French defeat is not a matter of what-if history. There is a concrete historical example: Britain after 25 Juin 1940.

Britain's position after the fall of France was 'clinging on for dear life'. Oversees possessions were falling like domino blocks. Even at the height of the Japanese threat the UK insisted on Australian reinforcements for Europe. An incapacitated, impotent Empire, until either the Russians or Americans could be persuaded into an alliance.

That was the actual strategic position of Britain, in the event of a German conquest of Western Europe. It would not have been much different in the first decades of the 20th century. There was no such thing as blissfully remaining aloof, remaining outside of European affairs for Britain. Britain was a European affair. The entire Empire was build on Britain´s careful maintenance of a European balance of power. It is a British myth that Britain had (or has) the luxury of staying aloof of 'European' affairs.


There is great strenght in the isle of Britain, and a phenomenal strategic position. Britain is not easily under acute threat. The fantastically overstretched Empire, however, always was. In the event of a French defeat, the Empire had to be given up. Yes. This is what was at stake. France defended the British Empire. (As much as the more easily visible reverse: Britain defending France and her Empire). As it is, even the victory in WWI already meant Britain had to provide for many home rule / independence movements throughout the Empire.

A French defeat in WWI or WWII would, by and large, have spelled the end of the British Empire. As it did in actual fact in WWII. A French defeat means British concessions. To several demanding parties: independence movements (India), US pressure (an end to colonialism as the price for American intervention), imperialist competitors - see Japan in the Far East in WWII.
Likewise, a French defeat in either WWI or WWII would mean Eastern Europe will fall to the victor of the German-Russian struggle for supremacy in that part of the world.

Not that the world revolved around France. It is an interconnected world, that is the point. A British defeat would've meant the end of France as the world knew it, period.
Then again, perhaps France and Germany could've formed an alliance, close economic cooperation, and challenge the anglosaxons together...
Nah...that would never happen...

[Brenus]

So, in short, a French defeat would have been a German Empire to The Atlantic to Pacific after the WW1, and a Russian (Communist) World after WW2.
In both case good luck UK.

[Vladimir]

Then again, perhaps France and Germany could've formed an alliance, close economic cooperation, and challenge the anglosaxons together...Nah...that would never happen...

Perhaps those European countries would enter into Union. It could happen...

[Kralizec]

Alsace-Lorraine was still more German than French. The French grabbed it while the Austrians (HRE) had their backs turned dealing with a Turk invasion.
....

It was like most things in international politics, it looked like it was handled by six-year-olds.

I've never visited Alsace-Lorrraine, met anyone who lives there or know much about their culture in general. I do know that they speak a germanic language. And I know that this means next to nothing.
I speak a germanic language, and that doesn't make me more German than French. It doesn't make me much of either. As a matter of fact, your first language is germanic as well.

As for the redrawing of the borders following WW1, you'll have to be more precise. Restoring the Polish state made sense, and (in my opinion) so did giving back Alsace-Lorraine to France. You might say that it was unfortunate that Sudetenland became part of Checkoslovakia, but to that I'd say that it would make absolutely no sense to give it to Germany, because it was part of Austria-Hungary before WW1. And for that matter, most if not all eastern-European countries had significant German-speaking minorities before WW2. One of Russia's more prominent generals during WW1, Von Rennenmapf, was an ethnic German.

Germany was planning a war well before 1914. they were looking for an excuse and the Austrian incident was just perfect. Russia was the main target but with France has her ally she needed to remove France before she could attack Russia. Germany was concerned that if it waited too long she would get overtaken by Russian and be unable to beat her.

Care to back this up? It's true that Germany had a strategic plan (the Schlieffen plan) for just this situation, but that should come as no surprise. I believe there's been a topic in the monastary about how the USA had a strategic plan for a war with Canada at the turn of the 19th to 20th century. Because they wanted to be prepared.

The facts are that Germany ended up in war against Russia because it was Austria's ally, and that Germany offered France a way out by offering an ultimatum to stay neutral (in France's defense, I probably wouldn't have caved in to this either).

Great powers make, and break treatys at there convenience.If Britian stayed out of the war, and left France to get its ass kicked, it would of saved the world a lot of hassle.

Nowaydays states make treaties all the time about the most technical and sometimes even trivial issues, but in those days treaties were considered serious obligations that states took upon themselves (I'd argue that by and large, they still are, but that's another topic)
Furthermore, garantueing Belgium's neutrality was a very strict and concrete treaty obligation, not some nebulous or open-worded directive. For that matter, Germany was bound to the same terms, since the empire was a successor state to the Prussian kingdom.

While the UK had other important reasons to enter the war, it was not some kind of empty pretext that was convieniently used to wage war.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I've never visited Alsace-Lorrraine, met anyone who lives there or know much about their culture in general. I do know that they speak a germanic language. And I know that this means next to nothing.
I speak a germanic language, and that doesn't make me more German than French. It doesn't make me much of either. As a matter of fact, your first language is germanic as well.

As for the redrawing of the borders following WW1, you'll have to be more precise. Restoring the Polish state made sense, and (in my opinion) so did giving back Alsace-Lorraine to France. You might say that it was unfortunate that Sudetenland became part of Checkoslovakia, but to that I'd say that it would make absolutely no sense to give it to Germany, because it was part of Austria-Hungary before WW1. And for that matter, most if not all eastern-European countries had significant German-speaking minorities before WW2. One of Russia's more prominent generals during WW1, Von Rennenmapf, was an ethnic German.

France is surrounded by countries with large 'French' minorities: Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Monaco.

This is not a problem. To be French-speaking does not mean to be French. They are Belgians and Swiss and Luxembourgians. There are also Dutch, German, Italian, Catalan, Basque speakers in France. By and large, they are perfectly happy about it.


Yet, that German minorities after 1918 should've ended up in Czechoslovakia, Poland, and elsewhere is considered a heinous crime. A stupidity. Arrogance. An injustice which had to be rectified. A sign of the criminal stupidity of the Treaty of Versailles.

Quod non. This criticism is lingering nationalist hysteria of the age. Sheer fascism. The fascist idea of a unified national body, which must include to the last person and village and farm anybody deemed a member of the nation (by bloodline and language), and which must exclude to the last farm, village and baby anybody deemed alien to the Volk. In this respect - German minorites outside of Germany - as in so many other respects, the criticism of the Versailles is firmly rooted in German ultranationalist/fascist hysteria. A sober, modern assesment from a democratic perspective yields a very different appreciation of the peacemakers of 1919. A Czechoslovakia consisting of Czechs and Slovaks and Germans and Jews is not a crime. No more than it is a crime for Belgium to exist, to be composed of Walloons, Flemings, and multilingual Brussels.

[sulla1982ad]

So, in short, a French defeat would have been a German Empire to The Atlantic to Pacific after the WW1, and a Russian (Communist) World after WW2.
In both case good luck UK.

Are you seriously claming those where German aims in the first world war? I'm confused here. Germany may of been out to conquer Europe during the second world war, but to claim this is the case for the first is wrong.

[Brenus]

Well, knowing what the Germans imposed on Russia, I can imagine what they would have impose on the French. You can read what they imposed in 1871 War, and makes the multiplication.
So the French would have put as a vassal (as Ukraine), the Northern Industrial Zone occupied and use for the German benefit.

The people complaining about Versailles should read the Brest-Litovsk.

[Vladimir]

Oops. Sorry. Wrong war.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

We imposed our choice of government on the French, so it wouldn't have been prudent to carve off chunks of France. We were fighting against Napoleon, and the deposed and later reinstated French royals were our friends.

They were corrupt fools that did nothing for France! And don't you dare talk like that! We French had Napoleon,and he was a great leader!

[Louis VI the Fat]

They were corrupt fools that did nothing for France! And don't you dare talk like that! We French had Napoleon,and he was a great leader!

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

I'm half french ,but I don't speak French well.It is true! Many people in france and in the army felt saddedned and broken,without a identity,after Napoleon abdicated,The Bourbons bascillay weakened france and gave it a weak army.Had they not destroyed Napoleon's army(We would have won the Franco-Prusso war easily) and in WW1,Put way more resistance.


The problem with your comparison to the Franco-Prussian war is obvious and I am surprised no one has picked you up on it. The Prussians defeated the the French army in France, captured the Emperor and besieged Paris. ?Under the circumstances the goverment surrendered, ceding the forts around Paris in the process and effectively giving the Germans the city.

This is the very reason why Versialle should have been made.It was a great embarresement to France itself.I would never surrender,I would fight to the death!

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm half french ,but I don't speak French well. It is true!

Hah, at last you admit it!

I knew my Spidey instinct was correct. I can sniff Frenchness from a mile away.


A semi-Frenchman lost in a foreign European capital. How odd...

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

Hah, at last you admit it!

I knew my Spidey instinct was correct. I can sniff Frenchness from a mile away.


A semi-Frenchman lost in a foreign European capital. How odd...

Are you French by the way?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Are you French by the way?

I'm Texan.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

I'm Texan.

Texan! Well that's a damn honour to meet you sir!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Texan! Well that's a damn honour to meet you sir!

It's an honour to meet you too!

Did you know Texas is bigger than France? I also own a farm the size of Auvergne.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

It's an honour to meet you too!

Did you know Texas is bigger than France? I also own a farm the size of Auvergne.

Amercia is bigger than france,yes.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Bloody-handed Jacobins...

[Sarmatian]

I would never surrender,I would fight to the death!

That's because you're only half-French. If you do want to be more in tune with your French side, you'd have to explore and familiarize yourself with the beautiful French concept of surrender.

[Pannonian]

They were corrupt fools that did nothing for France! And don't you dare talk like that! We French had Napoleon,and he was a great leader!

I'm half french ,but I don't speak French well.It is true!

Are you Corsican, perchance?

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

That's because you're only half-French. If you do want to be more in tune with your French side, you'd have to explore and familiarize yourself with the beautiful French concept of surrender.

And what are you? A land of people who have no country? You serbians are the one that started the war anyway. Because we never did surrender.(I'm half Japanese by the way) We may have,but they were descions made by our corrupt politicans and weak leaders.

Perhaps you have heard of Borodino? The French fought bravely in that battle.So did Napoleon as well.

We French were the first to stop the muislims from spreading Islam to Europe.Our efforts have never been recognised,only ridculed thanks to people like you.

[Louis VI the Fat]

And what are you? A land of people who have no country? You serbians are the one that started the war anyway. Because we never did surrender.(I'm half Japanese by the way) We may have,but they were descions made by our corrupt politicans and weak leaders.

Perhaps you have heard of Borodino? The French fought bravely in that battle.So did Napoleon as well.

We French were the first to stop the muislims from spreading Islam to Europe.Our efforts have never been recognised,only ridculed thanks to people like you.

Oh, I am quite sure Sarmatian was just being a wee bit naughty. He didn't mean any offense.

I think we can all agree here that of all the European tribes, the French are the bravest. The most noble race in Europe, superior in all the arts. The natural centre of European civilisation, around which all the other nations sit, feeding themselves on the crumbs of culture that spill over from the fifteen centuries of French cultural superiority.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Are you Corsican, perchance?

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

Are you Corsican, perchance?

No.Half Japanese(Samurai family) and Napoleonic family war(soilder)

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

Oh, I am quite sure Sarmatian was just being a wee bit naughty. He didn't mean any offense.

I think we can all agree here that of all the European tribes, the French are the bravest. The most noble race in Europe, superior in all the arts. The natural centre of European civilisation, around which all the other nations sit, feeding themselves on the crumbs of culture that spill over from the fifteen centuries of the French cultural banquet.

I don't want to boast about France being this and that,But yes,it is true that most of Europe has been from France.

Sarmatian,many people like him write replies like this,I would not be suprised at all if he were to write this.

[Pannonian]

Oh, I am quite sure Sarmatian was just being a wee bit naughty. He didn't mean any offense.

I think we can all agree here that of all the European tribes, the French are the bravest. The most noble race in Europe, superior in all the arts. The natural centre of European civilisation, around which all the other nations sit, feeding themselves on the crumbs of culture that spill over from the fifteen centuries of French cultural superiority.

'tis true. We sup on the treasure of French culture on those regular occasions when we sit in the French capital, deciding which government the French should have. It's rude to sit in their palaces deciding what to do with the French, and not partake of their civilisation while we're at it.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

'tis true. We sup on the treasure of French culture on those regular occasions when we sit in the French capital, deciding which government the French should have. It's rude to sit in their palaces deciding what to do with the French, and not partake of their civilisation while we're at it.

I can agree with what you have said.

[Strike For The South]

[Sarmatian]

I understand what you are doing, but this will not end well. Others will come in and reply, followed by yet others responding to that. Etcetera. It will be a bloodbath by tomorow. Sorry. LVI.


...now if you would just PM me that sort of stuff...

[Kralizec]

Wrong thread, Kralizec. Also, criticism of France isn't allowed under my watch. I expected better of you. LVI.











Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; Tomorrow at 00:56.