Best faction in Vanilla?

[ReluctantSamurai]

What timeline are we talking here? IMHO, Armenia, Pontus, or Seleucia all have better cavalry than Macedon, especially Armenia. They do require some advanced infrastructure to produce, hence the time question.

Sure later on Armenia/Pontus/Scythia/The Seleucids are all a threat but by that time any Roman stack worth's it's salt will have Legionary Cohorts or better + Auxilia / Archer Auxilia + Onagers.

That mix will lose every time to a cataphract army. Roman Archer Auxilia cannot go toe-to-toe with Cataphract Archers and the Heavy Cataphracts will grind cohorts into the ground. I always love the suicidal Auxilla charging my Cataphracts I keep telling them that just because the manual sez you have a bonus fighting cavalry that you can go off charging armored cav with defensive values well over 30.....but they never listen and so die by the hundreds............

[Myth]

I have had little trouble with those in SP, but i will take your word for it as i lack MP experience. Still, by the time Armenia and Pontus grow sufficiently the Brutii would have the best cities and the ability to field more armies.

[Centurion1]

What timeline are we talking here? IMHO, Armenia, Pontus, or Seleucia all have better cavalry than Macedon, especially Armenia. They do require some advanced infrastructure to produce, hence the time question.



That mix will lose every time to a cataphract army. Roman Archer Auxilia cannot go toe-to-toe with Cataphract Archers and the Heavy Cataphracts will grind cohorts into the ground. I always love the suicidal Auxilla charging my Cataphracts I keep telling them that just because the manual sez you have a bonus fighting cavalry that you can go off charging armored cav with defensive values well over 30.....but they never listen and so die by the hundreds............

Give me two generals And some equities and ill destroy Senate army

[ReluctantSamurai]

Still, by the time Armenia and Pontus grow sufficiently the Brutii would have the best cities and the ability to field more armies.

That depends on how quickly Armenia can secure Tarsus and Antioch. Regular HA come at a population of 2k, Cataphract Archers at 6k, and heavy Cats at 12k. Sinope is already close to the 6k mark if one gets there before Pontus drains the pop. training useless E. Infantry, and Nicomedia can be grown at a rapid rate if it retains a temple of Aphrodite. With some boldness, the Greeks can be relieved of Pergamum, and the Armenians can match city for city with the Peleponesus. Sparta, Thermon, and Corinth are slow growers, but Athens, Thessalonica, and Byzantium, are definitely recruiting centers for the Romans. Still, I cannot see the Romans outproducing Asia Minor in any way.

I have had little trouble with those in SP, but i will take your word for it as i lack MP experience

Lots of people have loads of problems with HA's. Almost as much as Ptolemaic Chariot Archers. Cataphract Archers eat those chariots for lunch or any meal for that matter, and can be a nightmare in the right hands. Furthermore, Roman infantry are in too loose of a formation to effectively stop a heavy cavalry charge, IMHO. While they are setting up to do their pila thing, they are getting their formation shattered. Pikemen in deep ranks are the best way to stop the cats. You can bog down the charge and try to swarm them from the sides before they can pull back after using up their charge bonus. The same works on the Light Lancers, which also have a very high charge bonus. Pikes or hoplites 6 or 7 deep stop 'em cold.

Unfortunately for the Romans, they don't have access to phalanx except through mercs. Equites are no match even for CA's let alone the heavy Cats, and Roman/Legionary or even Praetorian aren't all that much better. A Roman army's best bet for fighting cav-heavy Armenians is to choose wooded areas that grant infantry cav-fighting bonuses. Of course then Armenia can go more conventional and switch to Heavy Spears and it's own Legionaire's backed by 'Creeshans'.

In any case, it's going to be a rough going for either side.

Give me two generals And some equities and ill destroy Senate army

That'd be one battle even Alexander the Great would like to witness

[Myth]

If memory serves, Sparta can train Principes right off the bat (I have principes at turn 9 or 10 with my Brutii), but yes I see how your analysis is correct, not sure on the unit costs however, how many CA/Cat armies can Armenia field?

Centurion1 the Senate starts with Triarii stacks that have several levels of experience, a really good general and some Principes/Hastati with chevrons as well. If commanded by a human player I can't see anything but light horses running in to a meatgrinder.

[ReluctantSamurai]

how many CA/Cat armies can Armenia field?

Depends on several factors. Heavy cats cost 720 and CA 1140 w/o cost reducing ancillaries and both take 2 seasons to train. Expensive, as they should be, considering what they can do. What cities Armenia holds determines income, of course, but Armenia has the "Caravan" structure like other Persian factions which acts like a Temple of Hermes to increase trade. It's a slow start, but once rolling, a tough cookie to deal with.

If we consider a game where all factions are player-controlled, of more importance than mercs (as previously mentioned) is who is willing to put aside future conflicts temporarily, and squelch the potential powers like the Romans and Eggies. If the GC and Macedon make a short-term peace, the Brutii will be hard-pressed to make any progress at all. Gaul won't get much help until the Julii come over the Alps, and a Carthaginian-GC alliance will effectively snuff the Scipii on Sicily.

Anatolia and the Middle East would be interesting. For Armenia to make headway, peace with Parthia is a must. But then Parthia would have to take on Seleucia that way, so maybe they would prefer peace with them and concentrate on Armenia. Pontus' survival depends on a similar triangle. They have to move quickly to secure Asia Minor while watching their backs for Armenia. Seleucia has to choose carefully, as it can potentially have war on multiple fronts. Obviously the main threat is Egypt, but Hatra, Seleucia, and Sardis are all out on a limb.

Egypt's alliances would be interesting. Parthia or Numidia are obvious choices. One to secure its backside, the other its flank as it expands into the Middle East.

In any case, such a game would be great fun to play, and equally as fun to watch.