Best faction in Vanilla?

[plutoboyz]

I pick Numidia. great choice for those who like flanking with light cavalry. their cavalry, is the best. especially the camel!

[Slug For A Butt]

At least its discussion of some sort... this place is way too dead:(

Agreed!
This forum is way too dead for the best game of the best series of a generation!

[Centurion1]

im back and im starting a new topic. i took a hiatus from rtw but came back did a little modding of my own and enjoying quite a bit.

[Caesar the IIIV]

Had to go with Julii, My long lost Roman partners ;)

[Centurion1]

psh its the seleucids of course!!!!!!!!! unless the ai controls them then they suck.

I hate egyptians though i hate them so.

[Darkvicer98]

Macedon. Superb starting position. Phalanx. Long Spears. Heavy Calvary. Enough said.

[Megas Methuselah]

most RTW players discuss a mod or something, few play vanilla.

Yeah, the EB Forums on the Org are one of this site's most active subforums. Unlike most of the Org, those forums never really died down a lot.

It's pretty amusing that the seperate EB AAR section receives much more views than the Mead Hall.

[A Nerd]

I'm fond of the Scipii. I like thier starting position, the ahistorical green faction color and expanding into Greece is a fun way to begin the campaign. Also, before I learned of minor tweeks to make the other factions more 'playable' (hey, I'm not the tactician I thought I was), Rome was the only factions I could have any success with. Greece a second. Despite how lame the Spartans look, I'd like to pump those guys out in a campaign!

[Centurion1]

uh mate your talking brutti scipii are green

and there are some mods to make the spartans look better. Like i know there is a 300 mod done by private player and company made one, companies looks better of course but didnt change unit cards and when you zoom out in a battle they look like they did from before. Yet more shoddy work by CA im afraid, probably more out there as well.

i like one where you make your general have a bodyguard of spartans and be on foot.

[A Nerd]

Oopsie! Hee hee...never been much for historical accuracy! Where are such mods available? General bodyguard on foot sounds very appealing!

[gollum]

Many mods do this Nerd; including EB (for the German/Sweboz BGs).

[A Nerd]

I have EB right now but it's a little too difficult for me at the moment. I want to brush up on RTW first for awhile (hopefully that will help). Though perhaps the economic and goverment structuring of the campaign map are polar oposities and it won't, I'm not sure. I rather just use a simple mod to adjust vanilla RTW for those Spartans. I tweeked a few stats for factions in their starting positions as well. Other than that there is little else I want to do to my vanilla RTW campaign.

[gollum]

I know what you mean - i often do the same.

[Lord Reid of Britannica]

I've never been one for mods really, The historical accuracy ones are great for those who care for historical accuracy (not me to a certain extent, I do care but vanilla is accurate enough for me), but i just love vanilla for it's playability and fun factor

[Centurion1]

i play rome total realism but to be honest vanilla still appeals to me i just mod what i see fit.

I have EB right now but it's a little too difficult for me at the moment. I want to brush up on RTW first for awhile (hopefully that will help). Though perhaps the economic and goverment structuring of the campaign map are polar oposities and it won't, I'm not sure. I rather just use a simple mod to adjust vanilla RTW for those Spartans. I tweeked a few stats for factions in their starting positions as well. Other than that there is little else I want to do to my vanilla RTW campaign.

ok for new spartan skin you can either google it 9my recommendation because you will get good directions) or its even here on this website. finally on twc there is another mod skin where they look like theey are from frank millers 300 but i dont really like that look.

for bodyguards ask someone more experienced than me i downloaded the change i believe. its way cooler though.

[A Nerd]

I'll be googling soon!

[Myth]

In Rome: Total War.

Assuming all AI controlled factions (so, no human intellect advantage).

#1. Brutii - awesome temples, expands towards the rich Greek/Macedon lands via Senate missions. Is a Roman faction, which means it will TROUNCE anything late-game, due to the imbalanced build trees for cities, two extremely strong allies that protect it's West and South borders, and the good ol' Roman supperiority that has been discussed already.

Honorable mentions: Scipii (nearly as good temples, expands towards Carthage/Spain and gets decent sea trade (but not as good as the Athens/Sparta combo). Julii, who have crappy temples as far as unit bonuses are concerned, up unil super-lategame and Pantheons. However, the Juno line does give law boosts and good retinues, the Ceres gives a good retinue for early faction population (more generals - faster expansion). The Egyptians - very strong economy, crazy good archers and scary chariots. They always seem to dominate when i leave that corner of the map to the Ai. The Seleucids, who are monstrous lategame due to having good temples, very rich provinces and the most versatile unit rooster. Macedonia (for almost the same reasons as the Seleucids, but sans Elephant units).

Assumed all human-controlled factions (so every faction gets the human intellect bonus)

this is a problem since whomever starts first gets dibs on the mercs, and mercs are vital to factions like the Greek Cities, Thrace, Scythia, Carthage etc. Particularly whomever grabs those archers and slingers on Sicily will win that slugfest. Still, in my oppinion, If all your opponents are equally good human players, one can expect massive agression early on. Then the starting stacks come in to play. And guess who has the best starting stacks - that's right, the Roman Senate.

Provided that's an option, the SPQR faction is supperior in an all-human game. Very good generals, units of triarii and principes with chevrons, the ability to expand and take out whichever provine they choose (i'd go for Sparta and then Alexandria). They also have the three roman familias as their lapdogs early game. With 3 human-level Roman factions taking on the neighbors, and the ability to train First Legions, SPQR has this in the bag.

Now, assuming the Romans would not aid each other in an all human level game, then i'd say it's a close contest between Macedonia/the Seleucids/Scythia/Egypt and the Brutii/Scipii. Can't decide really since the starting battles for half of these depend vastly on mercs. The Seleucids could come out on top if they get dibs on the mercenearies and can bribe away Pontus and the Egyptians early on. Scythia could overrun it's neighbors with the early HAs, and just siege cities patiently. Macedon can turtle if it get's Cretan Archers on those walls, and can win field battles due to phalanx+cav combo. However, Egypt has no immediate threats and can either safely expand on Africa or go up North and take out the Seleucids and Greeks. So, in an all-human game, nobody will be able to pressure Egypt early on, and that will let them boom from the start. And that's why i'd say,

#1: Egypt in an all-human game, simply due to economical and logistical advantages, and very strong mid-game units.

It's close though, because if Carthage decides to skip the Italina conquest and teams up with Numidia Egypt will be hard pressed. However, that's assuming Numida and Carthage ally with each other.

[G. Septimus]

Actually this place has quite a few viewings - its just that discussion is a tad off. Its understandable though - most RTW players discuss a mod or something, few play vanilla.

I still play it though

well, The best are the Brutii,
because:
1. they have a strong army in the beginning
2. they expand to the east, Greece, and Mesopotamia via Senate Missions which will not only gain the Senate's Favor, but also the people (hell I got full Favor on both)
3. cool green colours lol
4. easy to take Rome when ready
5. cannot be flanked, unlike the Scipii (from the sea), Julii (through Etruria, or other Areas that will seem to make it's speahead settlement, Flanked)
6. Fun battes with Greeks, especially in Hard mode
7. for short: The best in Strategical, Tactical, and Numerical Advantages

[Centurion1]

seleucids. too good of a roster. and militia hoplites are a total bonus. cities are invincible with militia hoplites. in human play chariots (meaning: egypt) suck, hard.

[Myth]

Yes but if you assume that all opponents are equally good this means that Pontus will come knocking on your back door while Armenia takes Asia Minor. You can't beat their HA/Cav armies in the field early on. Cities? Who said one must assault? Sieges are still viable last time i checked.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I might agree with Myth's analysis for PvP mode, though I feel that in the right hands, the Seleucids will be a force. They are more spread than Egypt, and more open to attack from different directions, but nonetheless, the HA factions have crappy infantry and the HA can be countered early by "Creeshans" which the Selkies have immediate access to (unfortunately for the GC, the Seleucids go first and can nab the first two in Anatolia before them).

As long as the Seleucids stick to their cities, early on, the HA factions will have trouble assaulting. Egypt will have to watch its' back as there are some here who are pretty darn good with Numidia

[Myth]

The Seleucids are very rich and they can turtle in quite effectively. I'm still wondering what's stopping a dual cav army to just starve out a city - either sally forth and be subsequently crushed, or stay inside and starve. Cretians/Rhodians are good but they will be whittled down as you can't replenish your stacks. Now if Egypt did not play aggresively yes that could be pretty advantageous. However army for army Eggies will trounce Nmidia. And the Pharaoh's lands are so much richer than those arid deserts Numida has that the Eggies can have two armies for each one of their neighbors.

[VersusAllOdds]

The Julii IMO. Brutti cannot make Hastati at the begining, and Scipii have a weird position (although very interesting). When I play as Julii, I expend very rapidly, and block other Romans' expansion, because they can rush the best. Therefore, you can have no real competition.
Also, I think these are the main parametres to the quality of the faction:
- Proximity to the rich regions (Greece) and it's surroundings (Asia minor, North Africa, Italy). The ability to take Rhodes (as it's wonder is absolutely terrific). Egyptian provinces and Seleucia (cuz of Hanging gardens) are pretty good too. Concentration of provinces. You will be much, much more effective if you have a large region next to you with 10 settlements than one with 2. That's why I value Greece so much.
- Possesion of troops that are good in SP: Legionaries, HA, good cavalry (no need for a too heavy one). Phalanxes are good too, but they are far too defensive for my taste.
- Paved roads. If your faction doesn't have them, you suck! J/K, but I really hate playing without paved roads. Sewers too are very important.

[Myth]

So you're basically taking the Brutii's intended provinces and you justify Julian supremacy because you can build Hastati on turn 1? I'd say the Brutii starting stacks are better, and they have the luxury of having a ship that can cross over to Greece on turn 1. So good luck beating them (if played by an equally good player) to the Greek provinces. I always take Sparta on turn 4-5, and it can build Hastati.

[VersusAllOdds]

I'm probably biased. I really dislike the Brutii colour, their speach in the opening cinematic. In the meantime, I'm really fond of Gaius Julius...
The Julii, imo, are the most all rounded Romans when it comes to expansion. They have equal accessability to all rich territories, while the other Romans have better accessability to east/west respectivelly. If you prove to be significantly better than the AI, you can use your average position to turn it into a superior position to both the Brut and Scip. Of course, it's impossible to achieve when playing against a human, but it's called single player for a reason
:)

[Centurion1]

Romans are easy to beat in multiplayer and in I would imagine in campaign

A cavalry rush premarian destroys them quite easily. Pre Marian their units are good in autocalc and decent in actual battle but far from invincible

[Myth]

The problem with that is that there are only two nations that can cav rush any Roman faction relatively safely (as in, not sacrifice their entire game just to traverse half the world to ride some Veities down). Only Carthage and Macedon can do that. Carthage however, has to commit heavily and their cavalry isn't that effective, even with elephants they'd be hard pressed to take setllements or Scipii armies that are on high ground and have archers (they can grab the Cretian mercs early on).

Macedon's cavalry is very potent but if they devote their time to Brutii stomping, Thrace, Scythia and the Greeks will all stab them in the back, as Macedon has a very spread-out layout. Cavalry is expensive early on and lacks severely when phalanxes, walls+archers or Principes/Triarii come in to play unless one can out-produce the Roman factions (which isn't that easy for Carthage/Macedon) Sure later on Armenia/Pontus/Scythia/The Seleucids are all a threat but by that time any Roman stack worth's it's salt will have Legionary Cohorts or better + Auxilia / Archer Auxilia + Onagers. That will make fighting them in the field very hard but at the same time allow them to take settlements on turn 1, and thus drive cav heavy armies furhter back with more sucess, as for each Roman town sieged one can capture two or even three immediately due to the strong siege equimpent and good unit mix.

[ReluctantSamurai]

What timeline are we talking here? IMHO, Armenia, Pontus, or Seleucia all have better cavalry than Macedon, especially Armenia. They do require some advanced infrastructure to produce, hence the time question.

Sure later on Armenia/Pontus/Scythia/The Seleucids are all a threat but by that time any Roman stack worth's it's salt will have Legionary Cohorts or better + Auxilia / Archer Auxilia + Onagers.

That mix will lose every time to a cataphract army. Roman Archer Auxilia cannot go toe-to-toe with Cataphract Archers and the Heavy Cataphracts will grind cohorts into the ground. I always love the suicidal Auxilla charging my Cataphracts I keep telling them that just because the manual sez you have a bonus fighting cavalry that you can go off charging armored cav with defensive values well over 30.....but they never listen and so die by the hundreds............

[Myth]

I have had little trouble with those in SP, but i will take your word for it as i lack MP experience. Still, by the time Armenia and Pontus grow sufficiently the Brutii would have the best cities and the ability to field more armies.

[Centurion1]

What timeline are we talking here? IMHO, Armenia, Pontus, or Seleucia all have better cavalry than Macedon, especially Armenia. They do require some advanced infrastructure to produce, hence the time question.



That mix will lose every time to a cataphract army. Roman Archer Auxilia cannot go toe-to-toe with Cataphract Archers and the Heavy Cataphracts will grind cohorts into the ground. I always love the suicidal Auxilla charging my Cataphracts I keep telling them that just because the manual sez you have a bonus fighting cavalry that you can go off charging armored cav with defensive values well over 30.....but they never listen and so die by the hundreds............

Give me two generals And some equities and ill destroy Senate army