Koinon Hellenon

[etipac]

Would love to do a campaign with Koinon Hellenon but would like some more help.

1) What is the typlical battle roster for a Koinon Hellenon 20slots?(Sort of a composition of a legion or so although its different)
2) If I would try to re-write history what would I try to do and where would I try to go?
3)Are there any reforms with Koinon Hellenon? and how do they kick in?

And more info please.

Thanks
Etienne

[podoh]

1) There are some threads around for this, I might do a search later on if I have more time, but you'll probably find them yourself faster.

2) Wherever there are Greeks struggling under tyranny, my friend! As the KH you'll have lots of Greeks poleis revolting to you. Trying to reinforce all of these revolts makes a very interesting campaign.

3) I think there were some reforms tied to the vanilla marians, so you have to wait till the Romans have a second huge city (probably Capua). I don't think there a some reforms you can trigger yourself.

[Poulp']

to answer question #2, you'll need to maintain a sizeable fleet if you want to send troops overseas (it will be overseas with the greeks) to cities revolting to you (the usual suspects are Emporion, Arsé, Messana, Syracuse, Halicarnassos, Kyrene, and those two cities in Krimea).
To keep this fleet up, you'll need money, lots of money, so concentrate first on taking most of Greece, making trade partners and turtle up.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Rome has a unified (i.e. standard) military. All legions are organised more or less identically.

The Greeks do not have a unified military. They are an alliance of individual city-states.

So, with the Greeks of Koinon Hellenon, what you really have is a Spartan army, an Athenian army, and a Rhodian army. All organised slightly differently, even if they use very similar units. Sparta might emphasise a head-on clash with old-style hoplites and missile troops in support. Athens might emphasise battles of maneuver, outflanking peltasts and skirmisher cavalry with new style hoplites and phalanxes in support. Rhodes might emphasise missile fire with Rhodian slingers, with classical or levy hoplites in support. Each army will have its own preferred fighting style, but be able to combine with the others if necessary when a very large field army is required.

Later, after expansion, Koinon Hellenon might have a Corinthian army, a Thermon army, a Syracusan army, a Cretan army, a Massilian army, etc, etc, etc. All organised slightly differently, with the tactical emphasis on what locally-produced unit is the most effective, and its own style.

Romans = uniformity. Greeks = variety!
and:
Romans = simplicity. Greeks = complexity!

Basically, no two Greek armies would be exactly the same. Unlike Roman armies.

[Unintended BM]

For the greeks, I usually use a bunch of classical hoplites and family members as my main line, then get a bunch of cavalry and heavy infantry to circle around and flank while the hoplites hold the enemy in place. That probably isn't the most effective strategy for KH, but I'm used to pikemen, and if you put hoplites in guard mode, they kind of serve a similar purpose. I like the mobility of hoplites too. You don't have to keep on lifting and lowering your spears to move around.

[fraoula]

Rome has a unified (i.e. standard) military. All legions are organised more or less identically.

The Greeks do not have a unified military. They are an alliance of individual city-states.

So, with the Greeks of Koinon Hellenon, what you really have is a Spartan army, an Athenian army, and a Rhodian army. All organised slightly differently, even if they use very similar units. Sparta might emphasise a head-on clash with old-style hoplites and missile troops in support. Athens might emphasise battles of maneuver, outflanking peltasts and skirmisher cavalry with new style hoplites and phalanxes in support. Rhodes might emphasise missile fire with Rhodian slingers, with classical or levy hoplites in support. Each army will have its own preferred fighting style, but be able to combine with the others if necessary when a very large field army is required.

Later, after expansion, Koinon Hellenon might have a Corinthian army, a Thermon army, a Syracusan army, a Cretan army, a Massilian army, etc, etc, etc. All organised slightly differently, with the tactical emphasis on what locally-produced unit is the most effective, and its own style.

Romans = uniformity. Greeks = variety!
and:
Romans = simplicity. Greeks = complexity!

Basically, no two Greek armies would be exactly the same. Unlike Roman armies.

Hey that's a wonderful idea! You can even role-play that the metropolis might want to conquer their colonies ( Sparta - Taras, Corinth - Epidamnos, Amnbrakia etc.) with their own armies.
Thanks for the suggestion mate.

[Mulceber]

My standard set up was 8 units of Hoplitai (just the standard, classical hoplites), 3 units of Epilektoi Hoplitai, 3 units of Spartiatai Hoplitai, 1-2 family members with their somatophulakes, 2 units of Thureophoroi and 2-3 units of heavy cavalry (usually Xystophoroi Hippeis). Once I started getting further west (into Sicily), I tended to replace the Spartiatai Hoplitai with the more locally available Syrakousai Hoplitai. -M

[Nachtmeister]

Hey, long time no see, had lots of uni-stuff to do...

1) really depends on whether you want efficient game-play or historical role-play...
I am no expert on Greek history, so here's a suggestion for an efficient roster:

- Don't use full stacks; they will only drain your treasury. You can win battles with fewer units.

- Use hoplites as your main battle line, ~4 units plus FMs in the later game, use FMs entirely in the beginning until you can recruit hoplites, use them as suggested above in guard mode to frontally engage enemy units and keep them in place for flanking, bolster them with some levy hoplite units
- peltasts are great flankers on your *left* flank, first expend all javelins on enemy rear or enemy right-side, then charge into melee and use the swords to quickly rout the enemy right flank, ~1-4 units depending on the size of your treasury
- akontistai can support the initial peltast javelins with their own but keep them away from melee because they will get slaughtered
- slingers are best for killing enemy cavalry generals (or at least reducing the number of their bodyguard) and killing phalanxes because peltasts take too long to kill them in melee and the casualties of the hoplites pinning them down will mount while the peltasts get exhausted and counter-attacked...
- ekdromoi hoplitai to cover the flanking peltasts and to counter flanking enemy cavalry, ~2-3 units
- hippakontistai to disrupt the enemy battle line before your hoplites engage them and to kill routing infantry afterwards, especially important if you fight phalanxes as you don't want to have to rout them more than once because you always get casualties when fighting them, always keep at least 1 unit with every army, better to have 2, any more will become ineffective to manage
- if they are available, 1-2 units of hippeis xystophoroi for hammer-and-anvil tactics, after the peltasts have spent their missiles or on your right flank to attack both enemy flanks at the same time, 2 units might be a bit un-historical because the KH had restricted access to horses and thus a limited cavalry arm, but if you want to insta-rout an enemy phalanx you will need 2 units charging simultaneously.
- toxotai kretikoi to counter enemy missile units and cause huge casualties to any lightly or un-armored units
- a "large" fleet after you unite Hellas and have mines all over the place; the rhodian trieremioliai (sp?) are the most cost-effective ship type of the KH but you have to extensively upgrade the rhodian naval port to get access to them; you can also build them in Antiocheia and Alexandreia if you decide to conquer the east, not sure about the other naval ports, you can't build them in Athens. Your fleet should be safe from being *sunk* in a single attack with 3 units of trieremioliai, even against the occasional huge Ptolemaioi double-hull-ships.

2) Kill off Makedonia and Epeiros and unite all of Hellas including Tylis and Serdike and Illyria before going overseas in any direction, also get any gold mines up and running and make sure you take Kreta in the starting turn with the Spartan army, then fortify the borders (1 half-stack army in the west, 1 in Pella, then either try to support all revolting cities (but that makes for a very long and slow campaign and it will severely drain your treasury) or focus on one direction; personally, I prefer to go east and take Asia Minor for it's mines and port cities, but prepare for a permanent war with both the Ptolemaioi and the Seleukids from there on.
You could also try to conquer the Thraikian tribes, but be warned that they get very tough if you don't absolutely rush them.
If you support the Krim colonies against the Sarmatians, prepare for an endless war there; they will come with a full stack every three rounds or so.
Supporting the Iberian colonies is rather impractical until you control at least Sicily. If you do, take Kyrene - usually the Ptolemaioi take a long time to attack there and it gives you a nice trade income.
If you support Syrakousai and the south-italian Hellenes, either sack rome immediately or prepare for a reeeally tough and long war. Either way, you might want to wait before attacking Rome because of the march of time event - which leads to

3) - you get phalangites when the Romans build a "huge city" that is not Rome itself in Italy, usually that's Capua.
You can also "cheat" by taking Capua, making it a huge city and then force-diplomacy-giving it to the Romans - or so I read somewhere here in the past, haven't tried it myself yet.
And you *want* phalangites. The KH can afaik not recruit regional pantodapoi phalangitai so they rely entirely on the factional phalanx units...

I hope this helps.

[Andronikos]

I agree with Titus Marcellus Scato's post, that's just my way of playing as KH. You can also roleplay reforms, such as using Thorakitai after battles with Romans or phalangitai after battles with diadochoi (these phalangitai require MOT reform) and use FM with proper ethnicity to command the right army (a Spartan command Spartan army, Athenian FM commands Athenian army...), for colonies or cities that aren't represented by ethnicity use the closest one.