EU President has the charisma of a damp rag

[Andres]

I think it's fair to ask why the UK just doesn't leave the Union if they don't like it.


a simple, yet very telling google search

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think it's fair to ask why the UK just doesn't leave the Union if they don't like it.


a simple, yet very telling google search

because our politicians do. Labour refused to allow a Referndum on the Lisbon Treaty, and the Tories know that if they hold a Referndum on the EU we will leave; so they won't.

[Jolt]

because our politicians do. Labour refused to allow a Referndum on the Lisbon Treaty, and the Tories know that if they hold a Referndum on the EU we will leave; so they won't.

And why don't they want to leave? Is this some EU conspiracy to only allow British politicians who support the EU into political parties? Are they not British in the first place? Is it required an oath of fidelity to the EU when you join a British political party? Are British politicians payed with EU money? Is it a Zionist conspiracy to unify the world? Are the British politicians afraid of being laughed at by everyone if they leave the EU?

Why don't they want to leave?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And why don't they want to leave? Is this some EU conspiracy to only allow British politicians who support the EU into political parties? Are they not British in the first place? Is it required an oath of fidelity to the EU when you join a British political party? Are British politicians payed with EU money? Is it a Zionist conspiracy to unify the world? Are the British politicians afraid of being laughed at by everyone if they leave the EU?

Why don't they want to leave?

Leaving the EU has potential ecenomic sanctions attached, but, more than this, most of the current front-benchers are Europhiles rather than Patriots. They think in terms of Europe rather than Britain; then you get people (like me) who appreciate the value of a European trading bloc and co-operation but dislike the anti-democratic nature of the EU and believe the institution needs gutting.

Look at Lisbon, for example, it was decided by 27 men and women gathered together into a room, it was signed by them, and then the Irish voted (twice) and it became law. The proviso for necessary referndums and a SINGLE one in each country was not written into the treaty because it would have died. While I appreciate that politicians know things, we don't and we do elect them, I resent the circumvention of democracy when it pertains to the manner in which we are governed.

Particularly with regard to an Oligarchy like the EU.

[Furunculus]

And why don't they want to leave? Is this some EU conspiracy to only allow British politicians who support the EU into political parties? Are they not British in the first place? Is it required an oath of fidelity to the EU when you join a British political party? Are British politicians payed with EU money? Is it a Zionist conspiracy to unify the world? Are the British politicians afraid of being laughed at by everyone if they leave the EU?

Why don't they want to leave?

It seems that PVC and IA have answered your question very satisfactorily, so i will limit myself to your ancillary question: We're British, we don't go in for Zionist conspiracy theories like you excitable foreign types. :)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It seems that PVC and IA have answered your question very satisfactorily, so i will limit myself to your ancillary question: We're British, we don't go in for Zionist conspiracy theories like you excitable foreign types. :)

True, we engineered the original Zionist Conspiracy, after all.

[Subotan]

Leaving the EU has potential ecenomic sanctions attached, but, more than this, most of the current front-benchers are Europhiles rather than Patriots. They think in terms of Europe rather than Britain; then you get people (like me) who appreciate the value of a European trading bloc and co-operation but dislike the anti-democratic nature of the EU and believe the institution needs gutting.

From the perspective of a Europhile, and I'm sure this is the same for many apathetics, Eurosceptism is a confusing ideology, as it covers so many different perspectives.

The first is anti-Europeanism, and states that we should ignore Europe and set out to forge our own destiny in the world, usually by latching on to the USA like a louse.

The second is anti-Integration, and although it recognises the value of trade with Europe, anti-Integrationists express sceptism about economic or political integration with Europe

The third is more difficult to sum up in a single word, but anti-Oligarchism will suffice for this post. This is a focus on the perceived "democratic deficit" of the EU, particularly institutions like the Commission and the Strassburg Parliament.

(These is also a fourth, Socialist version, but this is largely irrelevant and I won't discuss it)

All of these fit snugly under the big cosy tent of Eurosceptism, and aspects of them probably appeal to all people, especially those right of centre and beyond. But let have a little thought experiment. Suppose the European Union suddenly came alive, and addressed al the problems that the anti-Oligarchs had. The Strassburg Parliament was blown up, the Comission assigned to the dustbin of history and elections for a President were held. After the dust had settled, how many Eurosceptics would be left?

It would be nice if a Eurosceptic could answer that, as I can't even begin to guess, because anyone who holds the opinions of the first or the second ideas I mentioned would nearly always agree with the ones below. Everyone who is an anti-Integrationist is an anti-Oligarch. And every anti-European is an anti-Integrationist and an anti-Oligarch. But it doesn't work the other way round, and yet Eurosceptism covers all of these different movements.

This leaves us asking, what does it mean to be a Eurosceptic, and what are you actually voting for when you vote for a Eurosceptic party? Euroscepticism is never given the tough analysis which an ideology as important as its followers say it is deserves. The result is a mish-mash of policies, and the ability of Eurosceptic parties to skip quite merrily between the three positions in order to appeal all voters. Scared you might lose some of the vote to the BNP? Then crank up the anti-European insults! Worried that your core vote is drifting back to the Tories? Then stress the importance of EFTA and your commitment to free trade! Need to expand your vote to the floating voters? Then pump out the leaflets plastered with words like "liberty", "democracy", "freedom", nice fluffy words that everyone agrees with.

Of course, the downside to this lack of consistency is confusion when parties like that gain power. But as nobody is interested in Europe, as it is weak, nobody cares, so that's alright then.

Also, I ******* hate Internet Explorer. The Piece of junk timed out on me when I wrote that post originally, and I had to retype it.

[Fragony]

I think it's fair to ask why the UK just doesn't leave the Union if they don't like it.

Because the people who don't like the EU are represented here by Farage. Such a party-pooper, they just want to be left alone.

[InsaneApache]

I think it's fair to ask why the UK just doesn't leave the Union if they don't like it.


a simple, yet very telling google search

A short history lesson. When the traitor Heath proposed joining the common market, he and his accomplicies told the electorate that it was a trading bloc. There would be no loss of national sovereignty. Period. Ironically in those days it was the Labour party who opposed the idea.

The negotiations complete, the UK joined the common market in 1973. It was such a contentious issue that two years later the govenment, this time a Labour one, agreed to hold a referendum on membership of the common market.

The referendum was held ( I remember it well) and it was asserted again and again that it was just a trading bloc and that membership would be good for Britain. At the time I was in full agreement with this. The poll was taken and the Ayes had it. So we stayed in.

The organisation Britain joined was called the European Economic Community.

A decade or so later, without a referendum, Thatcher signed the act that would transform the EEC into the European Community. I was in my twenties at the time and I admit to being slightly concerned at the move. No matter said the government, it was just a 'tidying up' exercise. (sound familiar?)

Fast forward to the early nineties. Maarstricht was signed, again with no recourse to the voters, and as we all know this treaty was the one that created the European Union. By this time, the voters were becoming alarmed at what was going on. After all, didn't we just join a trading bloc? What's all this talk about parliaments and councils and suchlike. Again it was not put to the electorate. It was claimed at the time that there's nothing to see here, move along, after all it's just a tidying up treaty. Deja Vu.

Another decade another Euro. This time the govt. under Blair realised that joining the single currecy was not a vote winner and pretended that they didn't want monetary union and so we stayed out.

Half a decade on an EU constitution was suggested as a 'tidying up exercise' to help the EU function better. It was on all the main three parties manifesto that signing up would be put to a referendum. They all renaged on that promise. In due course the treaty was signed by Mc Doom in a broom cupboard when he thought no one was looking. (all true)

So ther we have it. The UK was duped by successive tory and labour governments. People dont like to be taken for fools and have their views stamped on and disregarded but because they were it's no surprise that 70% of the population want out. How would you feel?

As for those EU fanboys who say let the UK go, you can't afford it. The simple fact is the EU needs the UK to prop up finance the massive spending going on over in Pumpyville.

I shall now have a cold shower.

*and breathe*

[Andres]

So ther we have it. The UK was duped by successive tory and labour governments. People dont like to be taken for fools and have their views stamped on and disregarded but because they were it's no surprise that 70% of the population want out. How would you feel?

As for those EU fanboys who say let the UK go, you can't afford it. The simple fact is the EU needs the UK to prop up finance the massive spending going on over in Pumpyville.

So, why is this 70 % not voting for that Farage guy who will surely decide to have the UK step out of the EU and save you all lots of money in the proces?

If 70 % of your population hates Europe so much, then why doesn't 70 % vote en masse for a party that says it's going to step out of it if elected?

[Beskar]

They don't want to blame themselves for their problems, they prefer to blame faceless bodgey men over in Europe. Even though they are in Europe, but some how, saying 'over there' makes it more imposing for them.

[InsaneApache]

Quick answer, UKIP are a single issue party.

The UK oters dont hate the EU, we just thought that it would have been nice if we were asked first if we wanted to become part of a federal Europe.

They don't want to blame themselves for their problems, they prefer to blame faceless bodgey men over in Europe. Even though they are in Europe, but some how, saying 'over there' makes it more imposing for them.

No. It's about democratic accountability and fiscal transparency. As a businessman what do you think HMRC sanction would be to me if my accountant refused to sign off my accounts for over a decade?

I'll give you a clue. Arrows on suits. Bars on windows. Lights out at 7 pm.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Quick answer, UKIP are a single issue party.

The UK voters dont hate the EU, we just thought that it would have been nice if we were asked first if we wanted to become part of a federal Europe.

And the UKIP is plagued by the usual problems of the populist right: incompetent, foulmouthed, full of political adventurers. Not a party one wishes to entrust with power.

Most corrupt party in the UK too. And, were it not for MEPs from cultures with less dreadfully dull and uncreative attachement to the separation of what's public and private, the UKIP would be the most corrupt in the European Parliament as well.



I do find it worrying, and a bit sad, though, that for moderate Britons, or from elsewhere, for whom Euroscepticism is close at heart, there is not really a moderate political option. Multiculturalism and the EU - on these two subjects, there is much electoral discontent that doesn't find itself represented by mainstream parties. That is democratically untenable in the long run.

[JAG]

I don't know why anyone in Europe thinks that vile, ignorant, right wing nut is worthy of any breath or air time - no one over here does. (bar the loonies in his and the Tory party)

[Louis VI the Fat]

Francophone only: http://www.lalibre.be/actu/internati...hn-bendit.html

~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

- maybe it's because you are from Belgium, a non-country!

Who was among the firsts to recognise this non-country? Yep, your country, mister Farage.

Besides, what about the territory of your country? It isn't very clear to me. It's more a condominium instead of a state. Oversea territory, what belongs to the crown, what doesn't belong to the crown, ... Very confusing...

And if we're talking about the European context, well, it seems to me that Britain is the non-European state here. No member of the Euro. Hundreds of exceptions and opt-outs. If there's one member state that is not a true member state aka a non-member state, then it's Britain.

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique/...e-leterme.html

Mais si, la Belgique est un pays, proteste Leterme.

"En tant que politique belge, je dois réagir immédiatement à la portée calomnieuse de cette intervention", a écrit le Premier - le même homme qui, dans une autre vie [?], déclarait que la Belgique n’avait "pas de valeur ajoutée". Comme quoi on peut changer d’avis.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, why is this 70 % not voting for that Farage guy who will surely decide to have the UK step out of the EU and save you all lots of money in the proces?

If 70 % of your population hates Europe so much, then why doesn't 70 % vote en masse for a party that says it's going to step out of it if elected?

What IA is saying, which is that none of the truly Eurosceptic parties could be trusted with running the country long enough to disengage from the EU.