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Thread: Patton and War Crimes
For SFTS & Frags, here is just a basic rundown of the events surrounding the Biscari Massacre. He was also involved in the Canicatti Massacre to a lesser extent:
During the battle for Sicily in 1943, American troops of 180th Regimental Combat Team of the 45th Division (Thunderbolt) fought German and Italian forces for control of the Biscari Airfield, which changed hands several times.
After the airfield finally came under Allied control conclusively, American soldiers murdered 76 of their prisoners in two separate incidents. 34 Italians and two Germans were shot to death in the first, and 40 more Italians were killed in the second.
When news of these events made it to Gen. Omar Bradley, he sought Patton's opinion. From Patton's journal:
However, only two men were brought up on charges - despite the obvious duplicity of others in a crime of such magnitude.
More disturbing, however, was the defence both defendants mounted. They quoted a speech Patton gave to them earlier in the campaign, and claimed they were following orders:
The defense was apparently successful. In order to protect Patton from the charge of war crimes, Bradley fast tracked the trials. For the first incident, the Army charged Sergeant Horace T. West. West admitted that he had participated in the shootings, was found guilty, stripped of rank and sentenced to life in prison. However, after serving just 6 months, he was released as a private.
For the second incident, the Army court martialed Captain John T. Compton for killing 40 POWs in his charge. He claimed to be following orders. The investigating officer and the Judge Advocate declared that Compton's actions were unlawful, but the court martial acquitted him. The Army transferred Compton to another regiment where he died a year later fighting in Italy.
Furthermore, the Army held neither Patton nor the unit commanding officer, Colonel E Cookson, to account in any way.
(Some summation via Wiki. Original sources: James Weingartner, `Massacre at Biscari: Patton and An American War Crime, The Historian LII, no. 1, (November 1989), 24-39.
Botting, Douglas & Sayer, Ian: Hitler's Last General: The case against Wilhelm Mohnke. Bantam Books, London, 1989, 354-9 )
During the battle for Sicily in 1943, American troops of 180th Regimental Combat Team of the 45th Division (Thunderbolt) fought German and Italian forces for control of the Biscari Airfield, which changed hands several times.
After the airfield finally came under Allied control conclusively, American soldiers murdered 76 of their prisoners in two separate incidents. 34 Italians and two Germans were shot to death in the first, and 40 more Italians were killed in the second.
When news of these events made it to Gen. Omar Bradley, he sought Patton's opinion. From Patton's journal:
Originally Posted by :
I told Bradley that it was probably an exaggeration, but in any case to tell the officer to certify that the dead men were snipers or had attempted to escape or something, as it would make a stink in the press and also would make the civilians mad. Anyhow, they are dead, so nothing can be done about it.
Bradley refused to cover up the massacre, and demanded that someone be held accountable. I told Bradley that it was probably an exaggeration, but in any case to tell the officer to certify that the dead men were snipers or had attempted to escape or something, as it would make a stink in the press and also would make the civilians mad. Anyhow, they are dead, so nothing can be done about it.
However, only two men were brought up on charges - despite the obvious duplicity of others in a crime of such magnitude.
More disturbing, however, was the defence both defendants mounted. They quoted a speech Patton gave to them earlier in the campaign, and claimed they were following orders:
Originally Posted by :
When we land against the enemy, don't forget to hit him and hit him hard. When we meet the enemy we will kill him. We will show him no mercy. He has killed thousands of your comrades and he must die. If you company officers in leading your men against the enemy find him shooting at you and when you get within two hundred yards of him he wishes to surrender- oh no! That bastard will die! You will kill him. Stick him between the third and fourth ribs. You will tell your men that. They must have the killer instinct. Tell them to stick him. Stick him in the liver. We will get the name of killers and killers are immortal. When word reaches him that he is being faced by a killer battalion he will fight less. We must build up that name as killers.
Several more soldiers said they were willing to give evidence that Patton had told them to take no prisoners. One officer claimed that Patton had said:When we land against the enemy, don't forget to hit him and hit him hard. When we meet the enemy we will kill him. We will show him no mercy. He has killed thousands of your comrades and he must die. If you company officers in leading your men against the enemy find him shooting at you and when you get within two hundred yards of him he wishes to surrender- oh no! That bastard will die! You will kill him. Stick him between the third and fourth ribs. You will tell your men that. They must have the killer instinct. Tell them to stick him. Stick him in the liver. We will get the name of killers and killers are immortal. When word reaches him that he is being faced by a killer battalion he will fight less. We must build up that name as killers.
Originally Posted by :
The more prisoners we took, the more we'd have to feed, and not to fool with prisoners.
After the massacre it came out that Patton was said to have stated that the prisoners being shot in ordered rows was 'an even greater error.' The more prisoners we took, the more we'd have to feed, and not to fool with prisoners.
The defense was apparently successful. In order to protect Patton from the charge of war crimes, Bradley fast tracked the trials. For the first incident, the Army charged Sergeant Horace T. West. West admitted that he had participated in the shootings, was found guilty, stripped of rank and sentenced to life in prison. However, after serving just 6 months, he was released as a private.
For the second incident, the Army court martialed Captain John T. Compton for killing 40 POWs in his charge. He claimed to be following orders. The investigating officer and the Judge Advocate declared that Compton's actions were unlawful, but the court martial acquitted him. The Army transferred Compton to another regiment where he died a year later fighting in Italy.
Furthermore, the Army held neither Patton nor the unit commanding officer, Colonel E Cookson, to account in any way.
(Some summation via Wiki. Original sources: James Weingartner, `Massacre at Biscari: Patton and An American War Crime, The Historian LII, no. 1, (November 1989), 24-39.
Botting, Douglas & Sayer, Ian: Hitler's Last General: The case against Wilhelm Mohnke. Bantam Books, London, 1989, 354-9 )
Very interesting, gracias. I always suspected Patton was more badass then Brad Pitt.
My only question is such: if you do not mind answering, which side were you rooting for?
That said, I would not have expected anything else from Patton.
That said, I would not have expected anything else from Patton.
Patton was true peacock. He often said archaic concepts like that , the man thought he was a descendant of great generals of rome.
how do you not love a man like that sometimes. Striking his soldiers though is inexcusable.
i recommend the movie Patton, is really very well done.
how do you not love a man like that sometimes. Striking his soldiers though is inexcusable.
i recommend the movie Patton, is really very well done.
Hmmmm not a directly involved, still reprehensible.
I like Patton because he had a killer instinict that was bred into most European generals. This is the part that gets most overlooked in American canon. Patton could stand toe to toe with the best generals in Europe where as men like Bradley and Eisenhower simply lacked that go for the throat instinict.
Really the divergence came when many of Americas top military men fought for the south and were killed.
Its no surpirse that Patton is cut from the same cloth as Washington and Lee.
Thanks PJ
I like Patton because he had a killer instinict that was bred into most European generals. This is the part that gets most overlooked in American canon. Patton could stand toe to toe with the best generals in Europe where as men like Bradley and Eisenhower simply lacked that go for the throat instinict.
Really the divergence came when many of Americas top military men fought for the south and were killed.
Its no surpirse that Patton is cut from the same cloth as Washington and Lee.
Thanks PJ
I thought he was a more grind-em-down kinda guy like Grant.
See: Littleton Waller in the Phillippines.
Originally Posted by Smith:
I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the better it will please me. I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States.
I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the better it will please me. I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States.
Originally Posted by AP:
My only question is such: if you do not mind answering, which side were you rooting for?
I wasn't there. My only question is such: if you do not mind answering, which side were you rooting for?
Originally Posted by Centurion1:
how do you not love a man like that sometimes
The psychology behind this sentiment represents a very interesting aspect of victor's justice. Orders and attitudes that put Germans away for life make Patton "badass".how do you not love a man like that sometimes
Sepp Dietrich, for example, was of similar rank to Patton, and he was every bit as "badass". His military exploits are legendary. He also had similar views towards POWs. They weren't to get in the way of success in the field. He got life, later reduced to 25 years.
Originally Posted by :
I like Patton because he had a killer instinct that was bred into most European generals. This is the part that gets most overlooked in American canon. Patton could stand toe to toe with the best generals in Europe where as men like Bradley and Eisenhower simply lacked that go for the throat instinict.
I agree. Patton was great because he fought to win at all costs among a bunch of careerists and bureaucrats. Unfortunately, he hailed from the one nation that wasn't fighting for its survival. America could afford to fight a gentleman's war, where politics and public opinion shared equal standing with battlefield success. In any other circumstances, in any other army, the slapping incident, for example, would not have sidelined his career. He would have made a brilliant Russian Marshal.I like Patton because he had a killer instinct that was bred into most European generals. This is the part that gets most overlooked in American canon. Patton could stand toe to toe with the best generals in Europe where as men like Bradley and Eisenhower simply lacked that go for the throat instinict.
Shameful acts. Crimes in their own right. Not unique either, not unique to Patton.
In fact, there are so many allied war crimes, that if one adds up all their sordid acts, they left as many victims as the nazis took almost a week!
You're reading history backwards this way - Germany ended up fighting to cling on for dear life, but this can not be read backwards to absolve it. The nazis didn't start the war for survival. It was one of conquest and subjugation.
In fact, there are so many allied war crimes, that if one adds up all their sordid acts, they left as many victims as the nazis took almost a week!
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
Unfortunately, he hailed from the one nation that wasn't fighting for its survival.
Oh, but that's not true. Germany and its many allies could've decided to just stay at home.Unfortunately, he hailed from the one nation that wasn't fighting for its survival.
You're reading history backwards this way - Germany ended up fighting to cling on for dear life, but this can not be read backwards to absolve it. The nazis didn't start the war for survival. It was one of conquest and subjugation.
You make it sound like everyone should've been shooting POWs, Panzer.
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat:
In fact, there are so many allied war crimes, that if one adds up all their sordid acts, they left as many victims as the nazis took almost a week!
Be careful what you wish for. I have heard there are a number of historians working on just such an equation. In fact, there are so many allied war crimes, that if one adds up all their sordid acts, they left as many victims as the nazis took almost a week!
Originally Posted by :
Oh, but that's not true. Germany and its many allies could've decided to just stay at home.
You're reading history backwards this way - Germany ended up fighting to cling on for dear life, but this can not be read backwards to absolve it. The nazis didn't start the war for survival. It was one of conquest and subjugation.
I was talking mainly about Russia. Patton was more in line with Zhukov and Yeryomenko than his American and British contemporaries. Oh, but that's not true. Germany and its many allies could've decided to just stay at home.
You're reading history backwards this way - Germany ended up fighting to cling on for dear life, but this can not be read backwards to absolve it. The nazis didn't start the war for survival. It was one of conquest and subjugation.
Originally Posted by ATPG:
You make it sound like everyone should've been shooting POWs, Panzer.
That was not my intent. I only meant to demonstrate that such attitudes were not unique to any one military during WW2. Obviously, it should not be done.You make it sound like everyone should've been shooting POWs, Panzer.
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
I agree. Patton was great because he fought to win at all costs among a bunch of careerists and bureaucrats. Unfortunately, he hailed from the one nation that wasn't fighting for its survival. America could afford to fight a gentleman's war, where politics and public opinion shared equal standing with battlefield success. In any other circumstances, in any other army, the slapping incident, for example, would not have sidelined his career. He would have made a brilliant Russian Marshal.
It's truly a pity many of Americas best military minds lay in Confederate graves. Victims of there own geopgraphy I agree. Patton was great because he fought to win at all costs among a bunch of careerists and bureaucrats. Unfortunately, he hailed from the one nation that wasn't fighting for its survival. America could afford to fight a gentleman's war, where politics and public opinion shared equal standing with battlefield success. In any other circumstances, in any other army, the slapping incident, for example, would not have sidelined his career. He would have made a brilliant Russian Marshal.
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
Be careful what you wish for. I have heard there are a number of historians working on just such an equation.
Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.Be careful what you wish for. I have heard there are a number of historians working on just such an equation.
I don't think that PJ's point was that allies were just as bad as the nazis, On the other hand, we shouldn't just ignore war crimes that weren't committed by the nazis.
Originally Posted by :
The psychology behind this sentiment represents a very interesting aspect of victor's justice. Orders and attitudes that put Germans away for life make Patton "badass".
Sepp Dietrich, for example, was of similar rank to Patton, and he was every bit as "badass". His military exploits are legendary. He also had similar views towards POWs. They weren't to get in the way of success in the field. He got life, later reduced to 25 years.
one of my favorite generals was erwin rommel. i am still impressed with military prowess over politics in many casesThe psychology behind this sentiment represents a very interesting aspect of victor's justice. Orders and attitudes that put Germans away for life make Patton "badass".
Sepp Dietrich, for example, was of similar rank to Patton, and he was every bit as "badass". His military exploits are legendary. He also had similar views towards POWs. They weren't to get in the way of success in the field. He got life, later reduced to 25 years.
Originally Posted by :
It's truly a pity many of Americas best military minds lay in Confederate graves. Victims of there own geopgraphy
Thats debatable. I agree that the southern generals were superior and the south has a fighting tradition (texas for example makes up 17% of americas armed forces) but there were excellent go for the throat generals in the North. a prime example would be Tecumseh Sherman.It's truly a pity many of Americas best military minds lay in Confederate graves. Victims of there own geopgraphy
and by the time of WW2 it no longer mattered. That generation was dead and gone and they would have had very little if any impact on the officers of america. There lessons lived on in military theory.
And George Washington was not a go for the throat general he was cool and calculating and waged a pseudo guerrilla defensive war.
Lee is of course a superb general but he also lost something with the death of his XO Jackson.
Once again, no one gives a care for the fate of the Philippines. 
Originally Posted by Centurion1:
one of my favorite generals was erwin rommel. i am still impressed with military prowess over politics in many cases
I don't really understand this Rommel obssesion. I admit Africa isn't my specialty, but from what I know, there wasn't anything so special about him. There are literally dozens of German generals I would give more credit to than to him.one of my favorite generals was erwin rommel. i am still impressed with military prowess over politics in many cases
Originally Posted by The Wizard:
Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.
Quite ineffective and slow they were. But yeah, we killed a lot in a week so they must have killed a lot, too.Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.
Originally Posted by The Wizard:
Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.
I'm well aware of what he was saying. Do you understand what I was saying?Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.
It is easy to make such a claim, but as more historians run the numbers, it will be hard to justify it.
Originally Posted by Sarmation:
I don't really understand this Rommel obssesion. I admit Africa isn't my specialty, but from what I know, there wasn't anything so special about him. There are literally dozens of German generals I would give more credit to than to him.
Of course, but people in the West naturally focus on their own contribution... makes 'em feel important. I don't really understand this Rommel obssesion. I admit Africa isn't my specialty, but from what I know, there wasn't anything so special about him. There are literally dozens of German generals I would give more credit to than to him.
Originally Posted by :
I don't really understand this Rommel obssesion. I admit Africa isn't my specialty, but from what I know, there wasn't anything so special about him. There are literally dozens of German generals I would give more credit to than to him.
im talking ww2 generals in germany. i liked him persoanlly in his private life as well.I don't really understand this Rommel obssesion. I admit Africa isn't my specialty, but from what I know, there wasn't anything so special about him. There are literally dozens of German generals I would give more credit to than to him.
but whats impressive is how well he managed against both Patton and Montgomery as foes and with the italians to back him up (lol)
but no he isnt my favorite generals just my favorite of the ww2 germans.
Originally Posted by :
Once again, no one gives a care for the fate of the Philippines.
who macarthur? he was ok but i dislike him. mentally unstable in my eyes.Once again, no one gives a care for the fate of the Philippines.
Originally Posted by Centurion1:
im talking ww2 generals in germany. i liked him persoanlly in his private life as well.
but whats impressive is how well he managed against both Patton and Montgomery as foes and with the italians to back him up (lol)
but no he isnt my favorite generals just my favorite of the ww2 germans.
Bah, I don't know... He showed some promise in France but then was relegated to Africa. He might have turned out great but he we'll never know. Also, his idea about putting tanks on the beaches, in range of heavy guns from the allied ships, during overlord makes you wonder about his military capabilities.im talking ww2 generals in germany. i liked him persoanlly in his private life as well.
but whats impressive is how well he managed against both Patton and Montgomery as foes and with the italians to back him up (lol)
but no he isnt my favorite generals just my favorite of the ww2 germans.
I feel it's more propaganda. Allies needed an explanation for the failures so they built up Rommel and DAK. "Ok we did perform poorly, but we were against the best of Wehrmacht fighting under best commander Wehrmacht has to offer" type of thing...
And neither Monty nor Patton deserve that much recognition in my book. Patton did show some glimpses of quality but he never had the opportunity to prove his skill in a large scale operation, so he's just an interesting "what if" for me, and the less said about Monty the better.
On the other hand, Patton is definitely the most interesting character among the Allied generals.
Originally Posted by :
On the other hand, Patton is definitely the most interesting character among the Allied generals.
oh yes hes one of those men, a peacock that you either love or hate. much like andrew jacksonOn the other hand, Patton is definitely the most interesting character among the Allied generals.
Originally Posted by :
On the other hand, Patton is definitely the most interesting character among the Allied generals.
oh yes hes one of those men, a peacock that you either love or hate. much like andrew jacksonOn the other hand, Patton is definitely the most interesting character among the Allied generals.
Originally Posted by The Wizard:
Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.
At least until you add Chiang Kai-Shek and Stalin...Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.
Originally Posted by :
At least until you add Chiang Kai-Shek and Stalin...
So painfully true.At least until you add Chiang Kai-Shek and Stalin...
Erm, no. Adding in those two would maybe crank the Allied war crime tally up to, oh, something the Nazis and the Japanese did every six months or so. Maybe a year if you're lucky.
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
I'm well aware of what he was saying. Do you understand what I was saying?
It is easy to make such a claim, but as more historians run the numbers, it will be hard to justify it.
Trying to morally equate the Allies with the Axis is a lost case from the beginning. Give it up.I'm well aware of what he was saying. Do you understand what I was saying?
It is easy to make such a claim, but as more historians run the numbers, it will be hard to justify it.
Originally Posted by :
Trying to morally equate the Allies with the Axis is a lost case from the beginning. Give it up.
Truth.Trying to morally equate the Allies with the Axis is a lost case from the beginning. Give it up.
Originally Posted by :
and the Japs did every six months or so. Maybe a year if you're lucky.
You should try to avoid saying jap, many people find it offensive. and the Japs did every six months or so. Maybe a year if you're lucky.
Edit: actually im sure you know, never mind.
Edit2: patton is on tv right now where i live.
Originally Posted by :
who macarthur? he was ok but i dislike him. mentally unstable in my eyes.
I was referring to the atrocities committed by America in its war in the Philippines.who macarthur? he was ok but i dislike him. mentally unstable in my eyes.
Originally Posted by :
I was referring to the atrocities committed by America in its war in the Philippines.
I was referring to the atrocities committed by America in its war in the Philippines.
what about the rape of china or the bataan death march, the japanese were nasty little buggers no doubt about it.
Originally Posted by :
The present war is no bloodless, opera bouffe engagement; our men have been relentless, have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of ten up, the idea prevailing that the Filipino as such was little better than a dog....
Not America's finest moment.The present war is no bloodless, opera bouffe engagement; our men have been relentless, have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of ten up, the idea prevailing that the Filipino as such was little better than a dog....
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