Patton and War Crimes

[Strike For The South]

Allow me to rephrase. Why were the British available to be attacked in Asia? Why were they and the French and the Americans there?

Becuze were naughty little imperialists.

You have shown me the light

[PanzerJaeger]

Becuze were naughty little imperialists.

You have shown me the light

Clever fellow. And how would you describe an argument claiming the moral superiority of one group of empires that based their conquests on racial superiority and native suppression fighting against another group of nations trying to establish empires based on the same principles? I'll give you a hint, it starts with an h.

[Pannonian]

Clever fellow. And how would you describe an argument claiming the moral superiority of one group of empires that based their conquests on racial superiority and native suppression fighting against another group of nations trying to establish empires based on the same principles? I'll give you a hint, it starts with an h.

Hextermination? After all, that's what the Nazis were reviled for, the attempt to eradicate other peoples. Even the Japanese didn't try that, although they contributed their own brand of extreme mass cruelty. But the Nazis, AFAIK, are alone in history in trying to cleanse this planet of certain peoples. That's what makes them the vilest ideology ever to walk this earth.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Hextermination? After all, that's what the Nazis were reviled for, the attempt to eradicate other peoples. Even the Japanese didn't try that, although they contributed their own brand of extreme mass cruelty. But the Nazis, AFAIK, are alone in history in trying to cleanse this planet of certain peoples. That's what makes them the vilest ideology ever to walk this earth.

http://www.australianexplorer.com/au...an_history.htm

[Megas Methuselah]

http://www.australianexplorer.com/au...an_history.htm

Don't forget Newfoundland, among many others. Here's to your success, Louis: cheers.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hextermination? After all, that's what the Nazis were reviled for, the attempt to eradicate other peoples. Even the Japanese didn't try that, although they contributed their own brand of extreme mass cruelty. But the Nazis, AFAIK, are alone in history in trying to cleanse this planet of certain peoples. That's what makes them the vilest ideology ever to walk this earth.

Not alone, sadly. Though most of the other examples would be tribal-style situations in the manner of Rwanda. Depending on your definition of extermination, some would include Serbian efforts in the Balkans during the last part of the 20th.

Nazi Germany stands alone, however, as the epitome of evil for its fiendish efficiency and horrifying committment to its genocidal goals. A modern "civilized" state harnessing a ridiculous portion of its capability for the purpose of eliminating whole groups of people simply because of their ethnic/genetic background. Pannonian, you are quite correct that this makes their ideology the vilest. Imperialism, for all its manifold faults and inherent racist attitude, was an attempt at political and economic domination and not eradication.

PJ: You should remind yourself that Germany played the "White Man's Burden" game just as assiduously as any other European power, so even if you accept the premise that Imperialism is somehow morally equivalent to planned genocide -- which I emphatically do not -- the Germans were no better than anyone else. They simply got a late start since functional unification did not occur until after the 1867 war.

Louis:

My comments on the "more effective killers" referred to the aerial campaign only. Germany's murderous efforts across the board far eclipsed the allies (at least if you discount Stalins efforts against his own people).

[Sarmatian]

some would include Serbian efforts in the Balkans during the last part of the 20th.

Must...resist...the...urge... The lure of the dark side is strong... Help me Obi-Wan, you're my only hope...

Seriously, nothing that happened in Yugoslavia comes even close, both in scale and severity, to WW2 atrocities. And this is rather recent and political, not historical yet, it belongs in the Backroom not the Monastery. So give yourself an infraction, go to your room and think about what you have just done.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sarmatian, Seamus merely writes that depending on one's definition, some would include Serbian efforts in the 1990's as genocide. However that may be - nobody, I think, is interested in rehashing all of that here - the point of his post, is that this is not comparable with the efforts of the Nazis in scale and severity.

~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

A lot of controversial subjects are touched upon in this thread. Quite unavoidably so, considering the subject. Modern German, Russian, British, American, French and Serbian history is explored here, sometimes in a very critical manner. There has to be leeway for controversial contemporary subjects, or we couldn't explore this fascinating topic.


Hmm...I was writing something elaborate here, but I just deleted it and instead I will write: Many would argue French neo-imperialist efforts played an unsavoury part in the events in Rwanda in the 1990's. Depending on one's definitions, some would say 'bears responsibility for genocide'.

If you catch my drift.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sarmatian, Seamus merely writes that depending on one's definition, some would include Serbian efforts in the 1990's as genocide. However that may be - nobody, I think, is interested in rehashing all of that here - the point of his post, is that this is not comparable with the efforts of the Nazis in scale and severity.

Louis is very accurately summarizing my position.

The scale, scope, and programmatic character of what occurred in the Balkans in the last decade of the 20th century was nowhere even remotely close to those perpetrated by the Nazis. While I noted that some choose to label those events genocide, I phrased it so as to indicate that that characterization was debatable. While it is obvious that some rather nasty events occurred, I am not sure that it was genocidal in character.

[Brenus]

“one group of empires that based their conquests on racial superiority and native suppression fighting against another group of nations trying to establish empires based on the same principles?”
Except as much I know, at least for the Second French Empire, the expansion was never based on this. It started to compensate the lost of Alsace Lorraine and the need of raw material and manpower for the Revanche.
All you describe came after, the duty of the white man and all others reason given to keep the Empire.
And perhaps it will sound familiar but as for Indochina, the French went to rescue Religious Minorities that were oppressed by a horrible tyrant. So they went to free the population from the Emperor of Hue Tu Duc in 1884…

Now, here what the People in charge were thinking:

“The Chinese is a thief and the Japanese an assassin; The Annamite both. This said, I highly recognise that these 3 races had virtues unknown to Europe and civilisation more advanced than our occidental civilisations. It would be convenient to us, masters of these populations, to win at least by our morality. I would be nice that we would, us, the colons, nor assassins or thieves. But this is a utopia.
To the unanimous eyes of the French Nation, the colonies get the reputation to be the last resort and the supreme asylum for all the outcasts from all the classes and from justice.
We host here the scum and the useless, the scroungers and the gate-crushers….
The ones that plant in Indo-China didn’t know to harvest in France; those who interchange were bankrupted; those who command to the literate Mandarins were the dry fruits of the Schools; and those who judge and sentence were sometimes judged and sentenced. After this, none can be surprised that in this country, the Western man is morally inferior to the Asiatic…
I saw, in this colonial plebe, so scorned, some valuable individuals.
To these, the surrounding and the climate were valuable.
They live on the edge of our too conventional life.
The birth of this kind of men is only possible in this Indo-China, so old and very new at the same time…”