KOTF sequel thread

[Zim]

This thread is to discuss ideas for the next PBM.

I'm going to keep this and the next post as space to add a list of new ideas as they come up, so people can catch up if the thread gets long.

[Zim]

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[Ibn-Khaldun]

Some ideas:

1. Non TW pbem game. (Europa Universalis? It's quite possible to play it in WotS/KotR/LotR/KotF format)

2. A new TW pbem game (ETW or NTW? Haven't played them though. )

3. A game similar to previous games but whit limited number of avatars(for active members). Other players (who don't want to or can't participate very often) will have avatarless characters.

[Cecil XIX]

I believe we should stick with RTW/MIITW. Not that I don't like Paradox Interactive or ETW, but I think the problems we've been having won't be solved by changing games. We need a radical new approach, something that's quite different from what we've done with the past. This is because I believe that after the Cataclysm in KotR, many veteran players such have myself haven't been able to deal very well with the obvious step back everything else since then has been.

There's one small thing that's also been a problem: RGBs. I've expressed my misgivings before, but I'm more convinced now then ever that they're a problem. It's understandable that we'd not want people to wait to get into the game, but not having RGBs has several benefits that more than make up for limiting our playerbase.

Firstly, it's only a problem early on in the game. The game'll give us Generals naturally as we expand to fill in the greater territory. Secondly, it causes us to expand too fast, because we've got a lot of players hungry for land and a lot of RGB to obtain victory on the battlefield. In KotR, we expanded by two provinces during the first term. In LotR and KotF, we took seven provinces. As a result we are much too powerful, too soon. Remember in KotR how we only conquered Milan and Venice? France, Hungary and Poland were never fully subdued, Poland never even lost Krakow! compare that to what we've done to the English, the Moors and Germans in short a short time in KotF. Finally, have an unlimited suppply of characters makes us value the characters we have less. This isn't true for everyone of course, but I think this is a major contributor to why we never had any abandoned characters in KotR, but tons in LotR and KotF.

That's why I think we should refrain from modding in RGBs. I can certainly tell you that I'll never use them again.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I agree that RGB's could be one of the problems why people lost their interest so soon. I noticed the same thing in WotB as well. Some new players signed up, got their RGB, played a turn or two and then left(there were exceptions of course).

If in the next game RGB's are not used then there should be options for those who don't have an avatar to play the game as well. Either agents or some avatarless characters they have created(like the ones YLC had in LotR). This way they can participate in the game but if they decide to quit it wouldn't hurt that much.

[Braden]

I'm happy with that and agree also. Not only do RGB's devalue avatars but having to wait for an active avatar allows players to get a greater feel for the game by following on the sidelines, also if their not about when an avatar becomes available then perhaps they were not the sort of longer term player needed for the game.

Hell! I remember playing for a month or more as a SPY!

Perhaps we also lacked RP avenues but that might also be due to the slightly more restrictive settings. The only major RP was our princess I thought.

Actually, daft as it sounds..how about a return to Rome or similar? The historical political in-fighting, back-stabbing and general playing for personal benefit was a great setting for pure Role Play and opened people up for this even when they had no full avatar.

Is there a Rome(ish) Mod for Medieval II?...its ok, found it..EBII...no experience of it yet but then I can't add ANYTHING to my PC yet, not even a demo, space is that tight.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

There is EBII but you'll have to wait a year or two before it is released.

[deguerra]

I do want to suggest Third Age Total war again.

[Braden]

With no EB for M2 yet then I'll have to second Third Age as an option.

[TheFlax]

I've never experienced the game without RGB, but I agree with what was said in principle about them.

For KotF I had what might be called a radical idea, but it was turned down. What I wanted to do was basically to have more events, but not only that, to have events tailored to certain character storylines. I should mention that events such as these would not necessarily have the scale of "true" events. In effect, I proposed to bring this type of game closer to an RPG.

Now I have no idea if this would work well and with the starting player base of KotF it would have been pretty hard to implement, but I do think it could be interesting.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I agree, more events would make the game interesting. For example, I think that if KotF would have had more duels or tournaments it would have been more entertaining and interesting for the players. Events(for everyone) or quests(for certain characters) that give either some ancillary or special trait could be fun.

[Ferret]

I would also like to do it on TATW

and though I agree that more events would make it more involving and fun for most of us it also means a hell of a lot more work for the gamesmaster, which they wont always have, unless we could get a system where these responsibilities are shared without bias.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Or we could find someone out of the game who is willing to work with the events?

[Ferret]

easier said than done

[TheFlax]

Depending on the amount of players I'd do it or help to do it at least. (Instead of playing a character) That is, provided people want more events.

[TinCow]

If in the next game RGB's are not used then there should be options for those who don't have an avatar to play the game as well. Either agents or some avatarless characters they have created(like the ones YLC had in LotR). This way they can participate in the game but if they decide to quit it wouldn't hurt that much.

The very first game, WOTS, had a two-tier Senate (Diet, etc.) system that was essentially divided between core players and casual players. Core players had avatars, ran for Consul, and did the usual stuff that we do in all these games. Casual players had no avatar and their votes were not 'weighted' by influence (back when we were still doing that). The idea was to allow any casual observer to drop into the game to vote during Senate sessions, but not to require further interaction from them. It worked relatively well, though it's worth noting that casual player participation was sporatic at best. Something similar could be done in future games.

[deguerra]

another potential solution to the avatar problem is to try this multiple faction thing we were throwing around in the other thread. Gondor and Rohan anyone? Of course this isn't limited to TATW, we could try it with anyone.

[TinCow]

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that including at least part of the WOTS system might be a good idea. I think there are a lot of players, like myself, who no longer have the time or the motivation to go full-tilt on the RPing aspect of the games. However, I think many people in that category would still be sufficiently interested in the game to read the Senate/Diet/etc. debates during active sessions and contribute votes on legislation and such. I know I would certainly check in to read the debates and log a vote, even if I didn't have an avatar. That might add some more fun for the players with avatars, as there might be a bit more unpredictability in voting phases, which could have interesting results.

[deguerra]

Yeah, it certainly seems a fair point.

[Braden]

WOTS was one of the few PBeM's to have been completed to its end as well, perhaps that's a lesson that we need to examine. To me, the two tier system worked as it allowed people to role play even if they had no definite avatar and allowed those who did to gain more power in an almost factual way.

TA:TW - if we did use that as a base we need to avoid the obvious pitfalls of using one of the most well know factions, perhaps Dale would be a good choice.

As to increase events in KotF's, yes, I even started to compile a rule-set, based on using multiplayer games, for a full blown tournament but things started to slow and it went downhill from there (should still have it all though) if needed.

[deguerra]

To be honest, I actually thought using one of the more well known factions would be good. It would provide a bit of an underlying narrative, so that things would not stagnate from a story viewpoint and quite frankly Mordor hits Gondor so hard most of the time, that I sincerely hope even Tristan would be given a run for his money, battle-god that he is.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

To be honest, I actually thought using one of the more well known factions would be good. It would provide a bit of an underlying narrative, so that things would not stagnate from a story viewpoint and quite frankly Mordor hits Gondor so hard most of the time, that I sincerely hope even Tristan would be given a run for his money, battle-god that he is.

So that he would ask a peasent unit to accompany his bodyguards in order to kill enemy full stack?

[Braden]

Ha! I just wanted to avoid any squabbles about who would be "Aragorn" etc...lol

[deguerra]

Yeah fair, although Aragorn isn't even part of Gondor (at least initially) in TATW. But I think we've resolved all character-picking squabbles amicably so far.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I gathered all these ideas and thoughts for the next game from this thread:

* Probably M2TW mod ( TATW was suggested many times )
* No more RGB's
* More events
* Two tier Senate system(core players have avatars while casual players don't)

[Braden]

I gathered all these ideas and thoughts for the next game from this thread:

* Probably M2TW mod ( TATW was suggested many times )
* No more RGB's
* More events
* Two tier Senate system(core players have avatars while casual players don't)

That all...sounds actually quite appealing.

[Ferret]

Soooooooooo anything gonna happen?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Perhaps we should take it easy and have a not so serious game before trying to create another KotR or LotR game?

RTW: BI vanilla game as Western Roman Empire? ERE? Franks? Huns?
With roman factions we could try to reconquer roman lands.
There is plenty of civil war opportunities with religion involved. Also, since BI still have RTW roman office traits(Consul etc) then it's even possible to have a republicans vs imperialists(a la KotR) wars!
We actually don't need some fancy mod. Sometimes basic stuff is even better!

Any thoughts?

[Braden]

Hmm, I did enjoy my BI games with the Franks. Would be a good interim certainly.

[TheFlax]

I'm also interested.