StarWars: Return of the Sith [Concluded]

[Beskar]

It's not likely that an unlynchable role with the name of Count Dooku is going to be fully trusted anytime soon.

That is part of Sigurd's sense of humour which why i said "I love you, Sigurd". You can just investigate me if you doubt me, but what I am saying is the truth and I have already assisted the town in providing information.

[GeneralHankerchief]

You're willing to waste two lynch votes on that possibility? Even if he is Sith, there are at least two more of them out there. I think our time is better spent finding other suspects. It's not likely that an unlynchable role with the name of Count Dooku is going to be fully trusted anytime soon.

No, I've seen this happen more times in the past than I can count. We kill him now, while he's still in the public view. If he doesn't get lynched next round, he slips away, has plenty of time to work, and then ends up destroying us all in the end. Lynch him tomorrow, get this part of the game over with, and then move on.

And I wouldn't trust any investigations on this role BTW.

[atheotes]

That is part of Sigurd's sense of humour which why i said "I love you, Sigurd". You can just investigate me if you doubt me, but what I am saying is the truth and I have already assisted the town in providing information.

what information? that you can investigate? that there could be vigilante roles?

[Askthepizzaguy]

No, I've seen this happen more times in the past than I can count. We kill him now, while he's still in the public view. If he doesn't get lynched next round, he slips away, has plenty of time to work, and then ends up destroying us all in the end. Lynch him tomorrow, get this part of the game over with, and then move on.

And I wouldn't trust any investigations on this role BTW.

Sure, I'll go along with that. And if he turns out to be an innocent, I suppose you'd be willing to die for wasting 2 rounds and possibly a powerful townie role?

If so, you've got my vote, with both possible meanings.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Sure, I'll go along with that. And if he turns out to be an innocent, I suppose you'd be willing to die for wasting 2 rounds and possibly a powerful townie role?

If so, you've got my vote, with both possible meanings.

No, I'm not willing to die for my mistake if it turns out I'm wrong. Because then we'll have wasted three rounds instead of two.

[Askthepizzaguy]

No, I'm not willing to die for my mistake if it turns out I'm wrong. Because then we'll have wasted three rounds instead of two.

I can vote for you either way. At least this way you get to check out a suspect first.

[GeneralHankerchief]

You misunderstand me. I'm not willing to die, period, because that's irresponsible townie behavior. Wasn't this established over a year ago?

I'm willing to admit that I was wrong, yes. Die, no.

[TinCow]

No, I've seen this happen more times in the past than I can count. We kill him now, while he's still in the public view. If he doesn't get lynched next round, he slips away, has plenty of time to work, and then ends up destroying us all in the end. Lynch him tomorrow, get this part of the game over with, and then move on.

The only example you've cited is CountArach in Settlement. CountArach did not win Settlement. In any case, I very strongly believe there is at least one pro-town role out there that is more powerful than Beskar. I'm sure he will keep an eye on this proto-Sith even if we somehow forget about him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hmm. You're not one to get nervous under such simple pressure, so I'll accept your explanation here for now.

[Beskar]

The only example you've cited is CountArach in Settlement. CountArach did not win Settlement. In any case, I very strongly believe there is at least one pro-town role out there that is more powerful than Beskar. I'm sure he will keep an eye on this proto-Sith even if we somehow forget about him.

There is, the expedition leader.

I believe they have revealed themselves to me, they spoke about night arrangements, and said about they know about the converting, etc, however, they were fishy because of the name "Count Dooku". Though saying that, in the write-up, he would have just struck me down if I was indeed a sith anyway, I doubt Jedi will re-allow me onboard if I was a sith.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The only example you've cited is CountArach in Settlement. CountArach did not win Settlement. In any case, I very strongly believe there is at least one pro-town role out there that is more powerful than Beskar. I'm sure he will keep an eye on this proto-Sith even if we somehow forget about him.

Slight difference here. CA was the only two-lynch example, true. But in the post you quoted, I was mostly referencing those who were in trouble early on, survived the initial attempt to lynch them, and then faded back into the background only to reemerge in the endgame and kill everybody. Assuming the Beskar/CA analogy is correct, then I'd equate "getting lynched once but dodging the second one" with "dodging the first lynch" for everybody else. Surely I don't need to cite all of those examples.

@ATPG: Not sure what you mean. Can you clarify?

[pevergreen]

I'd just like to state right here, before this is resolved, that I will *not* be providing any sort of information to Beskar even if he is lynched and ends up surviving. This will be out of protest for the system that I know is bound to materialize.

People are finally starting to agree with me.

QFT

Also, I would like to emphasize again that Sigurd does not allow this to happen. This was attempted in Midgard I and Sigurd responded by secretly providing all mafia with real cover role PMs to allow them to blend in. In Midgard II, Sigurd gave all mafioso cover role PMs right at the start of the game to prevent a mass-reveal from catching them. Even if Sigurd did not provide cover role PMs at the start of this game, I guarantee you that if a mass-reveal was attempted, he will ensure that it is useless.

IIRC didn't Midgard 1 hit this and the Jotun got perfect townie PM's midway through the game? Cover roles were rife in that, I was pro town and I got a cover role, even though I didn't have a night action...

I believe they have revealed themselves to me, they spoke about night arrangements, and said about they know about the converting, etc, however, they were fishy because of the name "Count Dooku". Though saying that, in the write-up, he would have just struck me down if I was indeed a sith anyway, I doubt Jedi will re-allow me onboard if I was a sith.

If at any point I am able to do this in any way (lynch, miraculous one off night kill etc) I will target you if you continue to keep this up.

So against these networks its not funny.

For those newer, read Netherworld (the first one) and pay attention to TinCow. Masterful performance, and proof of everything wrong with those groups.

[naut]

Another against the idea of networks, they do detract from some of the fun. They can work to an extent, but only towards the interests of a few players. They can also be infiltrated, but doing so is not easy. They imbalance the game, and no doubt Sigurd will be forced to make alterations mid-game to rebalance things. :sigh:

[johnhughthom]

I remember my first real mafia game, Rubicon. I became mafia midway through the game and had to try to survive against what I believe was a well developed network. I may be wrong, at the time I was new and the townies seemed incredibly well coordinated, it was a lot of fun trying to outwit them even though I failed miserably. I have been in games though were there is a townie network and been neither mafia nor part of the network, that can be pretty dull.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yeah, that was the first game where attack/defend groups were used to confirm people. CR managed to destroy that tactic by the way his game was setup, which is really the best way. The recruiting system and limited value of investigations and town vs town factions too, well I guess I'm saying I really like the shadow fort :)

If you aren't in a group you just have to play it more like one of GH's vanilla games. Except that you'll run up a wagon on your suspect and have 5 people pm you and tell you he's innocent :p

[atheotes]

If you aren't in a group you just have to play it more like one of GH's vanilla games. Except that you'll run up a wagon on your suspect and have 5 people pm you and tell you he's innocent :p

or more likely your vote will get lost in the bandwagon of the network

[Sasaki Kojiro]

or more likely your vote will get lost in the bandwagon of the network

That's why you have to be persuasive

Besides, if you push a wagon on scum and the network wagon overrides it, later you can say "I told you he was scum, but all you guys with all the information you had couldn't figure it out..."

[atheotes]

That's why you have to be persuasive

Besides, if you push a wagon on scum and the network wagon overrides it, later you can say "I told you he was scum, but all you guys with all the information you had couldn't figure it out..."

It is difficult to be persuasive when people think you are scum or when trying to reverse a bandwagon on you
i told you Captain Blackadder was scum.... but all you guys with all the information you had couldn't figure it out...till the next round

[Captain Blackadder]

Statement: I also use the force whenever necessary, meatbag. It pleases me greatly.

Yes it is something that many of us jedi fail to head. We fail to use our powers for the good of the galaxy. We sat and debated when action was called for and that is why we were defeated. I fought in the rebellion and it cost me much of myself almost too much but at the least I did something

Advisement: Is saying that such a good idea, meatbag? After all, saying that to an assassin droid does not appear to be the best of ideas.
Evasion: Err. I mean a protocol droid, meatbag. Ignore my last advisement.

His eye glistens as it whirs and moves to look upon the droid. I would easily defeat you your desgin is primative and my shield technology is far better then any weapon you may have

[Beskar]

I bet no one has noticed that Blackadder's avatar actually looks like Rowan Atkinson.

[atheotes]

I bet no one has noticed that Blackadder's avatar actually looks like Rowan Atkinson.

I did... i thought that must be the reason he chose to use it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Mafia games would be perfect if there was no network. I'll never join a network, and because of it I never have any info. Once I get chosen for a mafia role and im put in a position of info, I will wreck **** up. But in this game, Im again a simple townie, so it looks like another game of being in the dark while the big shots make the calls and have the rest of us die.

[Subotan]

The key factor within this game is whether the names of characters have any significance on the abilities. For example, I'm only a minor character who only appears in the literature of Star Wars, and accordingly, I'm a vannila townie. The fact that Count Dooku rather than Count Joe Bloggs is the expedition leader indicates that the personas of the charcaters we are playing as are the deciding factor in determining our abilities.

Mafia games would be perfect if there was no network. I'll never join a network, and because of it I never have any info. Once I get chosen for a mafia role and im put in a position of info, I will wreck **** up. But in this game, Im again a simple townie, so it looks like another game of being in the dark while the big shots make the calls and have the rest of us die.

Hear hear! Once more into the meat grinder, fellow townies!

[Jolt]

Yes it is something that many of us jedi fail to head. We fail to use our powers for the good of the galaxy. We sat and debated when action was called for and that is why we were defeated. I fought in the rebellion and it cost me much of myself almost too much but at the least I did something

Statement: That would be why blasting first and talking later is the best method of action, meatbag.

I would easily defeat you your desgin is primative and my shield technology is far better then any weapon you may have

Doubting: I find your claims extremely unlikely, meatbag.
Advisement: It is suggested you start running as my blaster warms up.

[TinCow]

Slight difference here. CA was the only two-lynch example, true. But in the post you quoted, I was mostly referencing those who were in trouble early on, survived the initial attempt to lynch them, and then faded back into the background only to reemerge in the endgame and kill everybody. Assuming the Beskar/CA analogy is correct, then I'd equate "getting lynched once but dodging the second one" with "dodging the first lynch" for everybody else. Surely I don't need to cite all of those examples.

True. All I can say to that is that at least I will not forget about Beskar. If you have concerns about him later and no one else cares, talk to me and I will listen.

I remember my first real mafia game, Rubicon. I became mafia midway through the game and had to try to survive against what I believe was a well developed network. I may be wrong, at the time I was new and the townies seemed incredibly well coordinated, it was a lot of fun trying to outwit them even though I failed miserably. I have been in games though were there is a townie network and been neither mafia nor part of the network, that can be pretty dull.

To be fair, that was a flaw in Rubicon itself. I did not anticipate groups being used in that manner, but it was legal. I will never use a system like that again for that reason.

The fact that Count Dooku rather than Count Joe Bloggs is the expedition leader

Dooku is not the expedition leader, I believe the first story indicates who that person is pretty clearly:

A small man comes down the gangplank and starts ordering you party about.

[Captain Blackadder]

I bet no one has noticed that Blackadder's avatar actually looks like Rowan Atkinson.

Indeed that is the reason I choose it.

[Yaropolk]

Agreement: That thought did also cross my mind too, meatbag. Would you like to kill him sooner so that we don't waste more lynches with him?

Let the anger out!

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Expedition leader is Yoda(a small man)?

[Winston Hughes]

Are networks not an inevitable side effect of having town roles in a game? If you really want to avoid them the easy solution would be to play every game in the basic mafia format, where only the scum get roles.

As a permanently baffled, powerless townie (11 games and counting) you might expect me to prefer that option. But I don't, mainly because it reduces the game to little more than metagame speculation and random voting - fun once in a while, but not something I'd keep coming back to game after game. The existence of unknown town roles and the possibility of networks forming behind the scenes provides an intriguing subtext for the in-thread discussions, even if I never get to participate in the backstage action.

As I said in the wake of a network-heavy game over at CFC, afaik the real problems relate to a network's publicity and reliability (ie. how widely known the reasons for trust are, and how likely it is that the trust is misplaced).

In this case, Beskar's reason for claiming our trust could not be more public, but what chance is there that the trust would be misplaced? If there's a good chance that placing trust in him could be a mistake, then it's up to people's own choices as to whether to accede to his demand for info - on such decisions are games decided. If, on the other hand, it seems that there is little chance that placing trust in him could be a mistake then the fault lies with the game itself. Personally, being no less baffled than usual about the game mechanics here, I don't see that his surviving a lynch is any reason to trust him, so I'll be keeping my info to myself.

[TinCow]

Are networks not an inevitable side effect of having town roles in a game? If you really want to avoid them the easy solution would be to play every game in the basic mafia format, where only the scum get roles.

They are not inevitable, but I agree that they are certainly likely to occur when there are pro-town roles. They become more common the more roles there are that can do night actions, and become almost a certainty when every single role (including the basic townie) can do something at night. That doesn't mean they're good for the town though.

As I said in the wake of a network-heavy game over at CFC, afaik the real problems relate to a network's publicity and reliability (ie. how widely known the reasons for trust are, and how likely it is that the trust is misplaced).

Even in extremely complex games, mafia still basically remains the uninformed majority versus the informed minority. It is always to the town's benefit to have as much information publicly available as possible, because that increases the number of eyeballs and brains cranking through the evidence. That's why the mass-role reveal is so abhorrant... unless precautions are taken by the host, it totally ruins the entire premise of the uninformed majority by spilling all info into the thread simultaneously. That's the absolute extreme of public disclosure of information.

Networks can work, and there are plenty of examples of it happening. There are often times very good reasons for using small networks, such as a detective using someone he's cleared as a mouthpiece to post his results. However, the bigger the network and the more complex the game, the greater the likelihood that the network will be infiltrated by the mafia. An infiltrated network actively works against the town, so it's not a casual threat. Infiltrated networks give two huge advantages to the mafia: (1) a much greater amount of information about other roles and planned night actions than they would normally have, and (2) the ability to influence the town's lynch and night actions in ways that benefit the mafia. There are even risks in non-infiltrated networks. Most networks tend to turn into hierarchical systems, with one or two people at the top with the most information making most of the decisions. However, those people are not infallible... if they make bad choices, they can lead the town in the wrong direction and the lack of transparency prevents the other townies from correcting the errors. In addition, a strong, publicly known network tends to make regular townies lazy. When there is an active leadership taking charge of hunting the mafia, many people will simply follow along without question. This actively dissuades people from trying to figure out the game on their own, which increases the likelihood that evidence of scum or errors by the network will be missed.

So, the key for the town is to keep the networks large enough to keep the pro-town roles safe and productive, while at the same time small enough to minimize the potential damage from an erroneous leadership or infiltration. It's a fine line to walk, and I personally think it's safer to err on the side of smaller networks with as much transparency as possible, even if it decreases the effectiveness of pro-town roles.

I'll suggest that further discussion of this be moved to a separate mafia game theory thread to prevent distraction from the game.