StarWars: Return of the Sith [Concluded]

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So you guys are pretending like pever is your partner?

[Niklas]

That's indeed what we thought. pevergreen was recruited after Psychonaut was lynched.

[Askthepizzaguy]

After speaking with everyone, I know what happened.

The Sith are able to recruit ad infinitum, the only restriction being you can't recruit Grandmasters or initiates it seems.

The game is a last man standing event. In the end, one Sith would eventually turn on the other, if there were two standing. Which makes sense because it's the only way to balance perpetually recruiting Sith. And it is very "Star Wars" of the Sith to turn on each other.

I became Grandmaster of the order after being Master very briefly. I didn't even get a second active ability... I'm the weakest Grandmaster ever. I couldn't even protect pevergreen last night as I intended.

pevergreen knows that I can't be lynched today and also that I was defended last night. His hope was to defeat Subotan while Subotan was trying to kill me, and go for a total victory for himself... the last one standing.

He also knows that Subotan could defeat me one on one and I'm more powerful than pevergreen. So, pevergreen's only chance was to overthrow the Sith lord, gain additional Sith powers in the process, and face me instead of Subotan in the final battle, where he stands a greater chance of victory.

Hence, the game is perfectly balanced. Subotan could have killed pevergreen last night as he was undefended. If I had been grandmaster sooner, I could have killed pevergreen as well, defending against attack and defeating pevergreen with Force Lightening. pevergreen could win because Subotan is about to be destroyed.

In the end, either team, and any man, could win. And thus the game is balanced, and pevergreen's move wasn't a bad move, it was actually quite brilliant. A shame he didn't beat Subotan outright, but this is the same thing.

pevergreen can probably beat me, because I don't think we're allowed to use cheap stuff like Force Protect and Destruction for our duel. probably will be a rock, paper, scissors style match.

[TinCow]

The Sith are able to recruit ad infinitum, the only restriction being you can't recruit Grandmasters or initiates it seems.

So, no matter what we did, the game was always going to come down to an ending like this?

[Niklas]

I have a different view than ATPG on what happened.

This game is probably not what you, the innocents, thought it was. In Sigurd's own words: "If you haven't recognised the game setup yet - it is a Grand Master vs. Dark Lord showdown, last man standing kind of game." No matter how many of us you would have lynched, we would have recruited another to take their place, rule of two and all that jazz. Psychonaut was recruited right after I was lynched, pevergreen was recruited right after Psychonaut was lynched. And what's more - random.org decided the recruits, not us. We had no power over who joined our side whatsoever (sorry YLC).

However, continuing with Sigurd's own words: "And so you don't lose heart - there is still the team win recognition." So basically this is both a last man standing game, but also a conventional mafia game, all in one. pevergreen seems to have freaked out when he found out about the last man standing component, believing that he would have to fight (the far more powerful) Subotan after ATPG was killed. That may have been the case, Sigurd hasn't clarified for us beyond the above, but even so he would have been on the winning side. Either that's what happened, or pevergreen simply didn't take well to being recruited, after spending the whole game as innocent. ATPG has shown me the conversation he and pevergreen had before last night, where pevergreen discusses how he wants to see Subotan dead.

If this game had been solely a last man standing event, pevergreen's move could have made sense, except A) he knew Subotan was using Force Cloak, and B) he won't be able to beat ATPG anymore than he could beat Subotan. So in freaking out, he threw away a team victory for not just himself but for the rest of us as well, possibly vainly trying to pursue a last man standing win that was out of his reach no matter what.

[TinCow]

So, essentially... it was totally pointless for us to even bother trying to find and lynch the Sith before this point?

[Niklas]

So, essentially... it was totally pointless for us to even bother trying to find and lynch the Sith before this point?

No, because each Sith started out pretty weak and grew more and more powerful as the game progressed. Just like Nomi Sunrider now is not what Yoda was back then, and nowhere near what Yoda would have been if he was still alive, so also was Psychonaut and pevergreen not what me and Subotan would have been at a final showdown. By taking down masters and grandmasters, we assured that the final Grandmaster would be relatively weak, at the price of generating more light-side force ghosts that would vote against us in the late game. Similarly by taking down the starting Sith, you could have been (and, as it would seem, will be) facing a relatively weak Dark Lord of the Sith in the final showdown.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So, essentially... it was totally pointless for us to even bother trying to find and lynch the Sith before this point?

I disagree.

With blocking powers and vigilante powers, the Jedi can defeat the Sith utterly. Just have to be lucky.

Kill one Sith, next day lynch the other. No chance of recruitment.

[Choxorn]

Unless the Sith can't be vigilante-killed.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

so if we lynch sith today, pizza becomes a sith recruit.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Unless the Sith can't be vigilante-killed.

There is something that can break through Force Cloak.

I don't know what it is, but it has to exist.

@Sasaki-

No, because I'm the Grandmaster. I cannot be turned to the Dark Side.

That's right, scummy sith-susceptible pizza is now the most incorruptible Jedi ever.

[Niklas]

Unless the Sith can't be vigilante-killed.

Sure we can. But if you had killed two of us the same night, two new would have risen (or at least so I've been led to believe). It's the holocron that does the recruitment, not us.

so if we lynch sith today, pizza becomes a sith recruit.

No, because Pizza is Grandmaster he is not susceptible.

There is something that can break through Force Cloak.

I don't know what it is, but it has to exist.

Force Destruction

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Eww. That mechanic makes me kind of grateful I went on auto-pilot round 6 or so.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Force Destruction

Well that's a tad unfair... Jedi can't learn that AFAIK.

[Niklas]

Well that's a tad unfair... Jedi can't learn that AFAIK.

Not sure what the Jedi Grandmaster can learn and not. I'm also not sure if it's the only power that beats Cloak (or even if I'm correct in my assumption that it does).

[Renata]

I'll I'm absorbing is that I wasn't right about Psychonaut after all. Woe. Bad townie, Psychonaut, bad townie.

[TinCow]

Sure we can. But if you had killed two of us the same night, two new would have risen (or at least so I've been led to believe). It's the holocron that does the recruitment, not us.

This... disappoints me. A last man standing game is interesting, but it's somewhat unfair for the vast majority of the players to be unaware that they were playing a last man standing game. I could easily have survived your third attack on me if I had defended myself, but I wasn't concerned with my own survival and thought it was more important to try and vig kill one of you. Had I been aware of the nature of the game, I would have made very different choices. I'm sure many others would have as well.

[Renata]

Also, bad townie me.

[Niklas]

A last man standing game is interesting, but it's somewhat unfair for the vast majority of the players to be unaware that they were playing a last man standing game.

We were not aware of the full nature of the game until quite recently either. We could guess, but didn't manage to guess it fully correct until Sigurd told us. That said - I don't think it makes much sense to play this as a last man standing game solely. It's a team game, just like any mafia game, and it's the team aspect that matters in the end, at least for me.

I could easily have survived your third attack on me if I had defended myself, but I wasn't concerned with my own survival and thought it was more important to try and vig kill one of you.

I beg to differ. You may have been powerful, but the third time we gave you a double whammy, like we did with Yoda.

[TinCow]

We were not aware of the full nature of the game until quite recently either. We could guess, but didn't manage to guess it fully correct until Sigurd told us. That said - I don't think it makes much sense to play this as a last man standing game solely. It's a team game, just like any mafia game, and it's the team aspect that matters in the end, at least for me.

Infinitely recruiting mafioso with no chance of recruitment failure, and no need for the mafioso to spend an action recruiting is not like any mafia game. It's mafia-whack-a-mole, played by a blind man without a mallet.

I beg to differ. You may have been powerful, but the third time we gave you a double whammy, like we did with Yoda.

Yeah, but I had Force Cloak and you didn't use Force Destruction.

[pevergreen]

Vote: Subotan

The circle is now complete.

You have no chance Subotan. For the last two nights I have gained both Jedi and Sith powers, fufilling my destiny to bring balance to the force.

I am simply playing how I have been all game, and how I envisage Kyp would.

As ATPG and I agreed, tonight shall be me vs him until the death.

[Niklas]

Infinitely recruiting mafioso with no chance of recruitment failure, and no need for the mafioso to spend an action recruiting is not like any mafia game. It's mafia-whack-a-mole, played by a blind man without a mallet.

Certainly true to some extent. We also felt like fumbling in the dark for long periods of the game. We had no idea how recruitment would work until we suddenly had Psychonaut among us.

Yeah, but I had Force Cloak and you didn't use Force Destruction.

Sure we did, it was the 4th power out of 4 used on you, and it just so happened that it didn't take all 4 abilities to take you down.

[Niklas]

I am simply playing how I have been all game, and how I envisage Kyp would.

That's so sad that it almost makes me laugh.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Infinitely recruiting mafioso with no chance of recruitment failure, and no need for the mafioso to spend an action recruiting is not like any mafia game. It's mafia-whack-a-mole, played by a blind man without a mallet.

That's nearly true except the Sith's actions can fail and we have blocking, investigatory, lynching, and vigilante powers.

IF:

We had lynched both Sith Lords early, and kept our masters and grandmasters alive longer, then we would have better powers than the Sith
We may have been able to scan the new recruits before they got Force Cloak, or lynched anyone found to have it.
We could have waited to do that until we found his partner, vigilante killed his partner and then lynched Force Cloak man, defeating 2 Sith before a recruitment is possible.

Still, without knowing the nature of the game this is highly improbable.

[pevergreen]

Never claimed to be town aligned even when technically town aligned, never claimed to be mafia even when mafia aligned.

Sigurd did try to warn me though, I'm guessing I'm not allowed to actually kill Subo, since he wasn't stopping me from chopping him up, and I still had a force power to use.

[TinCow]

That's nearly true except the Sith's actions can fail and we have blocking and lynching and vigilante powers.

IF:

We had lynched both Sith Lords early, and kept our masters and grandmasters alive longer, then we would have better powers than the Sith
We may have been able to scan the new recruits before they got Force Cloak, or lynched anyone found to have it.
We could have waited to do that until we found his partner, vigilante killed his partner and then lynched Force Cloak man, defeating 2 Sith before a recruitment is possible.

Still, without knowing the nature of the game this is highly improbable.

No, keeping Masters alive longer is actually a liability. Based on what's been said, everyone by the GM will eventually turn Sith, no matter what. So, a Master who survived the entire game as pro-town and became incredibly powerful would just flip over to Sith in the last rounds as the Sith were whittled down. Basically, all that really mattered was the survival of the GM. Nothing else made a difference, and powerful Jedi were as much a threat to the town as a benefit.

[atheotes]

i am not sure what to make of all this...good that ATPG survived the night.
I am not going to think about the mechanics right now. I hope it is not a last-man standing with unlimited automatic recruitment. But i will wait till the game is over and all is revealed.

Vote: Subotan

[pevergreen]

Yeah, interesting.

No point voting for me or ATPG, we both have lynch immunity.

[Askthepizzaguy]

No, keeping Masters alive longer is actually a liability. Based on what's been said, everyone by the GM will eventually turn Sith, no matter what. So, a Master who survived the entire game as pro-town and became incredibly powerful would just flip over to Sith in the last rounds as the Sith were whittled down. Basically, all that really mattered was the survival of the GM. Nothing else made a difference, and powerful Jedi were as much a threat to the town as a benefit.

Yikes that's actually true.

If Sigurd is the excellent host I believe he is, we are missing something obvious, like both starting Sith have to die before the recruitment stops, which is my original balancing theory. Since Subotan is the original, he was able to recruit even after Psycho went down.

[Choxorn]

No. It's, as Niklas said, handled by the holocron. They can infinitely recruit, even if there aren't any Sith currently alive.