If it wasn't so mean-spirited, it would be funny...

[HoreTore]

This thread reads like the worst of what I've come to expect in political/sociological discourse these days. You've all made intelligent, well-thought out arguments, don't get me wrong...

It just strikes me that there is a presumptive view that everyone must embrace every idea the majority finds favor with.

Of course the high school in question was expressing bigoted behavior. What bothers me is what Seamus hinted at in his last post, and I'll undercore for effect... you don't win arguments by forcing your view on others... you create partisans that way. Democracies aren't about getting 50.1% of the people to craw laws down the throats of the remaining 49.9% population....

Catholic priests won't marry gay couples. Should 50.1% of the population (or some small legislative block) pass laws to throw them in jail for not doing so?

Or should we start a dialogue about these things?

WTF!?

No, I don't care what you believe. You can believe that gays are immoral SOB's as much as you like, I don't care. But you can't exclude gays from public life, sorry. You have the right to not like them as you please, they have a right to exist.

I'm not targeting you specifically Don, it's aimed at the people this thread is about....

[Fragony]

How many more 16 year olds are going to miss out on a normal, happy life until that other 49.9% figure out that they are children just like all the others, not spawns of Satan? These are real people being ostracized for something as unchangeable as eye color, not some abstract political debate.

I don't know, all I know is that it takes time. We still have political party's that exclude gays and women and this is probably the most gay-friendly country.

[Scienter]

Looks like she'll get her day in court soon.
http://cbs11tv.com/national/lesbian....2.1556168.html

[The Stranger]

I doubt she didn't she this coming, guess she feels her sexual identity is the most important thing in the world.

And -1 for that school.

screw that... when there is injustice there is injustice. and that is one of the most important issues in the world... or would you say the same to a jew? i guess you think your religous identity is the most important in the world, guess what its NOT!!!!!! doubt you would do that.

[Fragony]

or would you say the same to a jew?

What if the school was Islamic, I bet the overall consensus here would be 'these things are sensitive these things take time'.

[The Stranger]

I'm just saying that for the folk of Mississipi with their traditional beliefs and what not, the idea of a prom is that white couples go together like they did in the olden days. Tradition means a lot in these things, it's not like their banning blacks from the club scene or taking part in public life.

You might not hold these values, but to the people of Mississipi, demanding blacks attend a prom is as ridiculous as demanding that whites get to go on black dating sites (idk if they can, but if they can then it's stupid). If blacks are going to be more excluded simply due to the fact that there are more white people, then that just sucks for them, but it's not their place to call on the government to demand everyone changes their own way of life to suit them (and we are talking about changing their way of life here, people are social creatures, and they have a right to have that respected in their public life, so long as discrimination is ever institutionalised).

Everyone is saying the school is being petty, but that's all we should do, not force them to change. Well, except maybe in this case if the prom is funded by the gov't, then they have to dance to their tune.

i mean... wtf.

If blacks are going to be more excluded simply due to the fact that there are more white people, then that just sucks for them, but it's not their place to call on the government to demand everyone changes their own way of life to suit them

especcially that part...

[The Stranger]

What if the school was Islamic, I bet the overall consensus here would be 'these things are sensitive these things take time'.

no. it would still be wrong for them to exclude the jew. because in holland everyone can go to any school they like. and if the government would say otherwise they would be wrong also.

look i agree with you about respecting traditions and if this was not a school party but per example a special christian or redneck conservative party i'd say oke... well its private they can include or exclude whoever they want. but a school is public. its open for everyone. so you cannot exclude anyone.

[The Stranger]

I don't know, all I know is that it takes time. We still have political party's that exclude gays and women and this is probably the most gay-friendly country.

right... holland is not at all gay friendly... and dont blame it on the muslims or the foreigners solely.

[Fragony]

no. it would still be wrong for them to exclude the jew. because in holland everyone can go to any school they like. and if the government would say otherwise they would be wrong also.

Not what I mean, how many points would this have scored on the outrage meter if it was an islamic school, why don't you check on your own. Rome wasn't build in a day, these things go slowly.

from article: "That's how I was raised," she said. "I don't know how everybody was raised, but that's how I was raised, to always be yourself and be proud of who you are. And it's like they're asking you, like for prom, you can be gay, just don't be openly gay, just hide it for a little while."

What's so unreasonable about that. I was so right about her.

[Rhyfelwyr]

i mean... wtf.

If blacks are going to be more excluded simply due to the fact that there are more white people, then that just sucks for them, but it's not their place to call on the government to demand everyone changes their own way of life to suit them

especcially that part...

Well of course. Remember, I was talking in theory, questioning what would be right if this was a private event.

I can't go to a Catholic school here, Protestants can't teach in them. And I don't care, no need for the moral outrage because we have to pretend everyone is the same.

[Ser Clegane]

I was so right about her.

Actually you weren't. Your claim rather was that she was a kind of gay activist who made a ruckus just to push an agenda.

Again, "openly gay" in this case did not mean that she was planning a gay rights rallye during the prom - it simply meant showing up with her date, which seems to be a key element of a prom.#
It seems that for you a person who simply asks for what should go without saying, is equal to an antagonizing activist who just wants to get spotlight at the expense of others.

[Fragony]

Your claim rather was that she was a kind of gay activist who made a ruckus just to push an agenda.

Yeah and as it turns out I was right. Some people just can't take no for an answer.

But in Fulton, says Strassmann, the idea of a lesbian prom couple hit a nerve.

The school board said it violated their policy against same-sex couples at the dance.

And it's like they're asking you, like for prom, you can be gay, just don't be openly gay, just hide it for a little while. <- perfectly reasonable, very telling that she can't live with that.

[Ser Clegane]

Yeah and as it turns out I was right. Some people just can't take no for an answer.

Any evidence?

[Fragony]

Any evidence?

Oh common, how does the ACLU know it this in the first place, because she contacted them of course, 1+1=2. But what I really want to know, who is paying her lawyer.

[Ser Clegane]

Oh common, how does the ACLU know it this in the first place, because she contacted them of course, 1+1=2. But what I really want to know, who is paying her lawyer.

That was after the school did not allow her to bring her date. So, seeking help after your rights have been trampled on makes you an attention seeking activist? If that is your definition of an attention seeking activist, what is bad about being one?

[HoreTore]

What if the school was Islamic, I bet the overall consensus here would be 'these things are sensitive these things take time'.

If it was a PRIVATE, CHRISTIAN school, then I don't care, they can be as bigoted as they wish(and they are).

But this is a public school, paid for with taxes. And that includes taxes paid by her parents, and herself too, if she has a job.

And it's like they're asking you, like for prom, you can be gay, just don't be openly gay, just hide it for a little while. <- perfectly reasonable, very telling that she can't live with that.

So.... You'd be fine with Jews having to hide their identity when living in areas that doesn't accept Jews?

No, this is an injustice.

[The Stranger]

Not what I mean, how many points would this have scored on the outrage meter if it was an islamic school, why don't you check on your own. Rome wasn't build in a day, these things go slowly.

from article: "That's how I was raised," she said. "I don't know how everybody was raised, but that's how I was raised, to always be yourself and be proud of who you are. And it's like they're asking you, like for prom, you can be gay, just don't be openly gay, just hide it for a little while."

What's so unreasonable about that. I was so right about her.

i dont get what you mean. i cant account for other people only for myself. and im telling you that for me there would be no difference. i'm not saying i dont understand why the school did what they did. im just saying it is wrong, and by wrong i mean practically more than morally. they are a public school and so have to obey the law. thats it.

What's so unreasonable about that. I was so right about her.

the unreasonable part is that in a public place you cannot demand of people to hide themself. that is whats it. and i believe everyone should always be proud of who they are and never hide it. that is the thing i hold against nazi's doing a rally too, they act all tough but they are masked. if you are a real man than take the friggin thing of and show your face. samething for terrorists on execution movies.

[The Stranger]

Well of course. Remember, I was talking in theory, questioning what would be right if this was a private event.

I can't go to a Catholic school here, Protestants can't teach in them. And I don't care, no need for the moral outrage because we have to pretend everyone is the same.

we dont have to pretend that everyone is the same. you live in ireland right? well if thats the law of your country, than its the law. wether or not that law is morally oke is indeed another question. but as long as that law is in its place one has to obey it.

besides your main reasoning can also be used against the school

the majority of the people is tolerant gay people, if the minority who is intolarant does not agree, well than thats their bad luck and they just have to live with it.

i dont think such reasoning is correct but its what you said.

[Fragony]

No, this is an injustice.

It's a wasted opertunity imho because it could have been really cute, but it's not an injustice.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Proms for Poms.

A prom is an important rite of passage, and rites of passage are more pronounced in the US than in western Europe. It is a big deal.

Oh common, how does the ACLU know it this in the first place, because she contacted them of course, 1+1=2. But what I really want to know, who is paying her lawyer.

Why, Ellen DeGeneres is. (No joke, she is)

What if the school was Islamic, I bet the overall consensus here would be 'these things are sensitive these things take time'.

But Fagony, erm...Fragony, in this case, I'd lambast the accomodating lefties for it. As would you.

One needs to be consistent. If you want to compare the school to Islam, then you would have to lambast the people who accomodate this school. Lambast those who when this school wants whatever they want whatever it takes they will talk.

[Fragony]

One needs to be consistent. If you want to compare the school to Islam.

I don't, it's just to emphasize the position I am taking, that these things can be sensitive. Since Islam has special status in the mind of most lefties it's a good vehicle to drive my point home.

that is the thing i hold against nazi's doing a rally too, they act all tough but they are masked.

Nazi's can go screw themselves but I think you are having a hard time destinguishing the extreme left and the extreme right, the extreme left are the ones hiding their faces behind arafat shawls, the nazi's are the bald ones who are very recognisable. That is really the only difference there is between them, they both hate the jews and they are both socialists.

[Rhyfelwyr]

we dont have to pretend that everyone is the same. you live in ireland right? well if thats the law of your country, than its the law. wether or not that law is morally oke is indeed another question. but as long as that law is in its place one has to obey it.

besides your main reasoning can also be used against the school

the majority of the people is tolerant gay people, if the minority who is intolarant does not agree, well than thats their bad luck and they just have to live with it.

i dont think such reasoning is correct but its what you said.

I live in Scotland, and we've had state-funded Catholic schools since 1918, as well as the state-funded non-denominational school, which effectively means Protestant schools (well not not necessarily nowadays, depends on the area). Anyway, up until now, the main issue people had with the school was from a moral, and not legal perspective. I do not think it is necessarily immoral for different people to be seperate but equal. If that's the way people want it to be, then let it be so for them, instead of some activists (which this kid was really, even if she's right) demanding everyone integrate when most people don't want to.

[Andres]

And it's like they're asking you, like for prom, you can be gay, just don't be openly gay, just hide it for a little while. <- perfectly reasonable, very telling that she can't live with that.

Why somebody should have to hide his/her sexual orientation is beyond comprehension for me.



What is the definition of "openly gay" anyway? It's not like they were going to the prom carrying a big sign with the words "ATTENTION: LESBIANS! WE'RE HERE TO PROVOKE YOU!" with flashing neonlights and loud music. No, it was just a girl going to a prom with her girlfriend. People would have only noticed it if they would have been staring at them.

[Fragony]

Why somebody should have to hide his/her sexual orientation is beyond comprehension for me.

They don't have to do it for me I don't give a hoot, but these people do. In my opinion she isn't defending her 'rights', how hard can it be to respect the feelings of others. If she would be silently crying in a corner I would sympathize with her, since everything looks like she is looking for trouble I really don't. Don Corleone said it best, you don't win any argument by forcing your views upon others. Have some bloody dignity instead clawing at whatever that doesn't suit your very specific needs. How if I may ask, would you have reacted, I know how I would have so I have every reason in the world to judge her. She can be gay all her life, why does she demand this as well, leave some for the rest being gay isn't a right it's a sexual orientation, no more no less. Prom is a tradition like carnaval, no more no less. You don't have to go.

[The Stranger]

I don't, it's just to emphasize the position I am taking, that these things can be sensitive. Since Islam has special status in the mind of most lefties it's a good vehicle to drive my point home.

that is the thing i hold against nazi's doing a rally too, they act all tough but they are masked.

Nazi's can go screw themselves but I think you are having a hard time destinguishing the extreme left and the extreme right, the extreme left are the ones hiding their faces behind arafat shawls, the nazi's are the bald ones who are very recognisable. That is really the only difference there is between them, they both hate the jews and they are both socialists.

i donty have any trouble at all. i dont care for extreme. or left or right. i just feel there is an inconsistancy here. and now you tell me all kinds of stuff of what i think and what i would do, but how do you know.

the point is simple there is a child of 16 years old and a schoolboard full of adults. and if both act immature than its clear that atleast the adults are more to be held accounted for. i doubt she is an activist. whether gay lobbyists who are exploiting this for their cause are being morally correct is something different. but you cannot demand of her that she hides who she is. what if the thing she had to hide was her colour of skin? or her lame leg?

[Fragony]

i donty have any trouble at all. i dont care for extreme. or left or right. i just feel there is an inconsistancy here. and now you tell me all kinds of stuff of what i think and what i would do, but how do you know.

Nope no inconsistancy, you will have to look at the other side for those, I treat all religions with the same disdain but only critisism of one particular one leaves the lefties breathless with moral outrage, otherwise they are cheering. And I know from experience how these debates go, sorry if it doesn't apply for you but that makes you a rather rare one.

The point is simple, she can't accept that not everybody sees things like she does and she will wreck everything in her way to fulfill her selfish needs, she doesn't care about anybody's feelings only about herself. She wants it, and she wants it now.

[Ser Clegane]

she will wreck everything in her way to fulfill her selfish needs

And again: How did she wreck anything?

The school decided to cancel the prom. She did not present an ultimatum along the lines of "Either you will allow me to come with my date or I will make sure that nobody can go to the prom". This was solely the decision of people who rather cancel the fun for everybody instead of allowing a person something that could not possibly have ruined the prom for anybody who would not have chosen to have it ruined.

Your line of argument is in no way different from any argument that could have been made in the past for segregation.

you don't win arguments by forcing your view on others

This is also a very strange argument in this context

Firstly: What did she try to force on others? The simple presence of a gay couple? It seems to me that only the school is guilty of forcing a view on somebody. In this case for her the effects (not being allowed to come to the prom with her date) are much more tangible then the potential effect on others (having to "endure" the mere presence of an openly gay couple - and I have not even read of another student commenting that the gay couple would have ruined the prom if they would have been allowed to come)

Secondly: What would have been the alternative to "win" the argument? According to the arguments so far, just being openly gay already qualifies as "forcing your view on others".
Should she have simply done nothing? Not coming to the prom at all? Sitting at home and cry? Guess that would have really helped to "win" the argument and to convince the school that the next year they should be more tolerant ...

[Andres]

They don't have to do it for me I don't give a hoot, but these people do. In my opinion she isn't defending her 'rights', how hard can it be to respect the feelings of others.

For the school board, it is very hard to respect the feelings of others, so it seems.

If she would be silently crying in a corner I would sympathize with her, since everything looks like she is looking for trouble I really don't.

You're turning the world upside down.

Going to a prom with your girlfriend is looking for trouble for the mere reason that you're also a girl? How is that "looking for trouble"? The schoolboard people are the ones looking for trouble by cancelling the prom because they don't like a girl walking hand in hand with another girl. And why should she be crying in a corner? She has every reason to be outraged. Heck, I don't even know the girl in question and I'm outraged as well!

Don Corleone said it best, you don't win any argument by forcing your views upon others.

Who is forcing what on who?

You're turning the world upside down again.

Have some bloody dignity instead clawing at whatever that doesn't suit your very specific needs.

She doesn't claw at anything. She just wanted to dance with her girlfriend on the prom, like any other teenager of her age.

She can be gay all her life, why does she demand this as well, leave some for the rest being gay isn't a right it's a sexual orientation, no more no less.

She doesn't demand to be gay. She doesn't want "the right to be gay". She IS gay.

Prom is a tradition like carnaval, no more no less. You don't have to go.

Traditions can change too, you know. Societies evolve. Discrimination is no longer accepted nowadays. That's a good thing too, if you ask me.

I prefer a society that doesn't accept discrimination over a society that doesn't accept gay people.

[Fragony]

And again: How did she wreck anything?

Not expllicit means implicit im this sort of speak, so the school didn't explicity state that they would cancel the prom otherwise it's called denial, so that means they hinted at it. Clearly enough for everybody to understand. She put her heels in the sand (is that even english) and so did the school. Why doesn't enyone consider the position of the school, what if they allowed it in a place such as that I tried to argue that before, it's a deeply conservative part of America what choice do they really have, might not like the general consensus of the place but it's what they have to work with anyway, she cornered them and cornered cats make odd jumps as we say here. If it is a tradition that is so important for her, why it so unimportant for her?

Traditions can change too, you know. Societies evolve. Discrimination is no longer accepted nowadays. That's a good thing too, if you ask me.

Sure but give it the time it requires. I am just as progressive as you guys when it comes to this and I think it is a wasted opertunity, but when you overdo it it becomes harassment. When you are overdoing it depends on the place, these people have just as much right on their way of looking at things.

[The Stranger]

I live in Scotland, and we've had state-funded Catholic schools since 1918, as well as the state-funded non-denominational school, which effectively means Protestant schools (well not not necessarily nowadays, depends on the area). Anyway, up until now, the main issue people had with the school was from a moral, and not legal perspective. I do not think it is necessarily immoral for different people to be seperate but equal. If that's the way people want it to be, then let it be so for them, instead of some activists (which this kid was really, even if she's right) demanding everyone integrate when most people don't want to.

well i do have a moral issue with the school. i do think it is wrong. but im a moral subjectivist. so i cant say more about it. but whats more is that they are a public school so they are also practically wrong and that is what i hold most against them. if it is different in your country than in your country she would be wrong. but in america the school is wrong.