The Logic and Strategy of Suicide Terrorism

[Lemur]

Fascinating speech linked here, which essentially makes the following point:

In contrast to the popular assertions that terrorists "hate freedom" or want to build a 21st century Caliphate, Pape documents the true driver of suicide attacks: to compel a democracy to remove combat forces from territory the terrorists prize and/or want to liberate. It is not primarily a function of Muslim extremism, even if Muslim terrorists have embraced the tactic. [...]

This doesn't mean that terrorists don't despise Western values or don't, in their minds, hope to restore Islamic rule, it just means that those things don't matter nearly as much as is presumed and don't figure centrally into the history of suicide violence.

I'd embed the video, but our new board software is quite picky about what it will accept. Old-timey link to video, just like they had in grandpappy's day.

[gaelic cowboy]

Very comprehensive talk I knew most of it allready but it was nice to see it all gathered together like he did gave a very good picture of whats really going on.

[KukriKhan]

So it isn't: "My religion compels me to attack the infidel, blowing myself up at the same time, to show my sincerity.", it's:
"Get off my property, you trespasser!".

Interesting. I've order his book Dying to Win.

Was it clear to anyone else (and I just missed it) exactly who Pape was actually addressing in the vid? I sure wish he'd quit with the nervous giggling while talking about dead people, whether bombers or victims. I understand he's excited about his database and the 'new' conclusions he has drawn from it - but the laughter was quite off-putting for me. Hence, I order the book, and check out his database at http://cpost.uchicago.edu/about.php

[gaelic cowboy]

I think he may have been giving the talk to these people it's on the board behind

NewAmerica.net

[Fragony]

Sure you got the right link? I want to hear this but I can't see how long it is, and he's just been talking about a database for a while now

ah, 5 minutes ff

Not yet done, but this is impossible to dismiss. Very interesting a must see.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Fascinating speech linked here, which essentially makes the following point:

In contrast to the popular assertions that terrorists "hate freedom" or want to build a 21st century Caliphate, Pape documents the true driver of suicide attacks: to compel a democracy to remove combat forces from territory the terrorists prize and/or want to liberate. It is not primarily a function of Muslim extremism, even if Muslim terrorists have embraced the tactic. [...]

This doesn't mean that terrorists don't despise Western values or don't, in their minds, hope to restore Islamic rule, it just means that those things don't matter nearly as much as is presumed and don't figure centrally into the history of suicide violence.

I'd embed the video, but our new board software is quite picky about what it will accept. Old-timey link to video, just like they had in grandpappy's day.

I don't buy it, not really. Groups only use suicide terrorism against those they also oppose ideologically. So while he may be right, I suspect the point is moot.

[gaelic cowboy]

I don't buy it, not really. Groups only use suicide terrorism against those they also oppose ideologically. So while he may be right, I suspect the point is moot.

Moot how is it moot policy is being shaped when obviously people don't have the full facts. And you say the word ideologically like it only applies to sucide terrorism all groups be they countries fighting regular war or terrorists oppose there enemy ideologically

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Moot how is it moot policy is being shaped when obviously people don't have the full facts. And you say the word ideologically like it only applies to sucide terrorism all groups be they countries fighting regular war or terrorists oppose there enemy ideologically

Islamic Terrorism does oppose the West Ideologically. They want the West out of the Middle eastern because we are Westernising (read: corrupting). The attacks in America, Britain, and Spain etc. come from an Imperialistic rhetoric which seeks to "conquer the infidel". This is different to, say, Northern Ireland where most people will prefer to give up violence when their living conditions improve. If you improve the living conditions of peoples in the Middle East the Islamists will fight harder.

As far as opposing enemies ideologically, that's not really true. Most wars are fought over material resources.

[Fragony]

I have been watching the video since it was posted, and it's not done yet. It's worth a look, maybe we I got it all wrong.

[gaelic cowboy]

Islamic Terrorism does oppose the West Ideologically. They want the West out of the Middle eastern because we are Westernising (read: corrupting). The attacks in America, Britain, and Spain etc. come from an Imperialistic rhetoric which seeks to "conquer the infidel".

You watched the video but you tuned out the bits that don't fit your view

This is different to, say, Northern Ireland where most people will prefer to give up violence when their living conditions improve. If you improve the living conditions of peoples in the Middle East the Islamists will fight harder.

Zero fact's for this people in Ireland before partition where better off than people say 50 years before therefore by your reckoning it should have lessened violence instead we kicked the empire out.

As far as opposing enemies ideologically, that's not really true. Most wars are fought over material resources.

Show me an example of a war where both countries involved fought over resources and said we don't hate each other we just want the gold it has never happened. The resources are often the reason for the war but the war is sustained by ideological means.

[gaelic cowboy]

I have been watching the video since it was posted, and it's not done yet. It's worth a look, maybe we I got it all wrong.

It's more a case of we may have focussed on the wrong things now the facts are there maybe the thing can actually be won now if there is such a thing as a win in all this

[miotas]

Wow, invading their countries make them angry. Who'd have thunk it?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Zero fact's for this people in Ireland before partition where better off than people say 50 years before therefore by your reckoning it should have lessened violence instead we kicked the empire out.

The Irish were still demonstratably worse off than the English, though. Not to mention the English garrisons and the various casual depravities that soldiers might inflict upon young women. The song "Gentleman soldier" comes to mind.

Show me an example of a war where both countries involved fought over resources and said we don't hate each other we just want the gold it has never happened. The resources are often the reason for the war but the war is sustained by ideological means.

What material do we have that Bin Laden wants? Why is he waging war against the West?

[Cute Wolf]

Islamic Terrorism does oppose the West Ideologically. They want the West out of the Middle eastern because we are Westernising (read: corrupting). The attacks in America, Britain, and Spain etc. come from an Imperialistic rhetoric which seeks to "conquer the infidel". This is different to, say, Northern Ireland where most people will prefer to give up violence when their living conditions improve. If you improve the living conditions of peoples in the Middle East the Islamists will fight harder.

As far as opposing enemies ideologically, that's not really true. Most wars are fought over material resources.

Irronically True.... as they always think every of the western "donations and aid", are "tribute" mentioned in qur'an.... every fanatics here always think about that...

[gaelic cowboy]

What material do we have that Bin Laden wants? Why is he waging war against the West?

Well my own guess is from whats mentioned in the video and by Bin Laden himself he was basically telling the west to get out or else. After all we can see first comes the so called occupation of the Holy Place(Saudi Arabia) after the first gulf war then comes the declaration of the universal caliphate not the other way round.

[gaelic cowboy]

Irronically True.... as they always think every of the western "donations and aid", are "tribute" mentioned in qur'an.... every fanatics here always think about that...

Who told you that????? thats pure rubbish if aid was seen as tribute they would hardly go around killing and kidnapping aid workers now would they

[KukriKhan]

At least Mr. Pape's analysis provides a comprehensible motivation that, if correct, possibly suggests different, more productive "ways out". The trouble with the "crazy Islamist" theory of 'know your enemy' is that it was either un-actionable, or doomed to a lifetime's-long struggle to win; a direction it seemed more and more to me, we were headed.

OTOH, we must be careful to examine any end-game theories based on this motivational model, to be sure it isn't just wishful thinking driving our conclusions.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Who told you that????? thats pure rubbish if aid was seen as tribute they would hardly go around killing and kidnapping aid workers now would they

Regrettably, foreign aid is all to often a way for the leadership cadre of a given state to feather their own personal nests; often therefore is connected with the corrupt powers that be (and therefore condemned with them); carries the implicit "we're better off than you are you poor pathetic souls" attitude that so many find galling; and actually provides some help to people in need.

Foreign Aid has purchased so much good will for the USA around the world over the last half century...er...strike that.

[Louis VI the Fat]

A few quick thoughts:


- Pape analysed all suicide terrorist attacks. (Did he?)
He did not analyse all those who wish to compel a democracy to remove combat forces from territory. I think we've yet to witness the first Argentinian blowing himself up for the Falklands.

Even so, just because most territorial demand does not know suicide teror, does not mean that suicide terror is not about territorial demand.


- Maybe a suicide terrorist attack only gets qualified as such if it is accompanied by some understood - if even unspoken - demand.


- Maybe private frustration, anger can find a 'meaningful' outlet in suicide terror in societies where there is a lingering grievance. Lots of people want to hate a group, want to 'shoot them all, that'll teach 'em'. I still think the suicide bomber is often close to the Western school shooter or 'man kills everybody at his office / home, then slains himself' type. These last two do not have a ready noble cause in which to cast their action.


- The thing with suicide terrorism, as contrasted to other terrorism, is that the perpetrator must have a group identity. One is by definition never a martyr for a particularistic cause. This explains why suicide terror is linked with, limited to, religion, nationhood or equally strongly felt group identities. Next to a shared identity, there must also be a common gain.
Some religions have a closer connection between teritorial demands and religious identity thanh others.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It's an interesting point.

In purely methodological terms, he doesn't have enough of an n to assert that this factor is the dominant factor in decision-making in such instances. This is understandable, of course, as most of the population in this data-set is not readily available for research.

However, his point seems an interesting one. I have no doubt that territorialism is part of the motivation factors at play here. I strongly suspect, however, that it is only part of the set of factors (albeit his point that it is all too often a incorrectly dismissed is valid) at play in someone making such a choice.

I do think there is a cultural sense of the value of life at play here as well. In the West, we are taught that each individual matters. This does not obviate suicide attacks, nor suicidal/near suicidal efforts in certain circumstances -- and we usually pin medals on them. Nevertheless, we simply do not come from a culture where the worth of the individual is sublimated to that of the collective to the extent that I believe obtains here.

[KukriKhan]

Wow, invading their countries make them angry. Who'd have thunk it?

He's actually an advocate of "shock and awe" type air power, when it's accompanied by speedy land attack. I think what he is saying is staying in a country, once it has been militarily defeated, engenders or inspires suicidal martyrdom attacks by non-military occupants of that country, and their sympathizers.

My objection to his thrust is that it leads to the conclusion "Staying here just makes it worse... Just leave". I'll vote for that action when it's proved to be the ONLY recourse.

[miotas]

He's actually an advocate of "shock and awe" type air power, when it's accompanied by speedy land attack. I think what he is saying is staying in a country, once it has been militarily defeated, engenders or inspires suicidal martyrdom attacks by non-military occupants of that country, and their sympathizers.

Soooo, when they're naughty, instead of taking their toys away, you just give them a smack?

[Hax]

The attacks in America, Britain, and Spain etc. come from an Imperialistic rhetoric which seeks to "conquer the infidel".

There is zero basis for this in the Qur'an.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clear from error"

"He said, `O Abu Hurayrah! Does it please you that you kill all people, including me' I said, `No.' He said, `If you kill one man, it is as if you killed all people. Therefore, go back with my permission for you to leave. May you receive your reward and be saved from burden.' So I went back and did not fight.''' `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "It is as Allah has stated,"


I'm just saying this so that it may become obvious that there is no religious argument, just a political argument.

[al Roumi]

Guys, terrorism is a tactic. Not a damn ideology. If we can get past that and why some might see how anyone who kills civilians is a terrorist, then perhaps we can talk ideology and motivations more rationaly.

Terrorism is a tool of the weak, as guerrila warfare is the tool of the occupied. If Al-Qaida had a standing army at its disposal, I think it would use it rather than bomb plots. Bomb plots are a power magnifier, they don't usually do much serious damage in the way that an army can (scale) but they hit an enemy where they are weakest with a disproportionate impact.

[Fragony]

There is zero basis for this in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.

Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).

Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Pursuing an injured and retreating enemy is not an act of self-defense.

Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" From the historical context we know that the "persecution" spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah."

Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.

Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

Qur'an (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?

Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.

Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed!

Qur'an (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)

Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah

Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."

Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"

Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"

Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.

Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.


[b-b-b-b-b but teh Bible] <- insert leftist reflex here

did it for ya

[al Roumi]

The Qur'an: ...

[b-b-b-b-b but teh Bible] <- insert leftist reflex here

did it for ya

Well... in the same way as Christians are meant to turn the other cheek and don't, Muslims are meant to be warlike and aren't. Thank you Fragony, this is great as it shows that religion is not the centre of this debate.

[Hax]

[b-b-b-b-b but teh Bible] <- insert leftist reflex here

This is not about the Bible. If you want to find violence in religion, sure; the Kalachakra Sutra also refers to fighting, which is a Buddhist text. So what?

The verses you quoted refer to historical circumstances where the Muslims were attacked. They are not a ticket for every Muslim to kill people.

Read the Qur'an. I can get quotes from Harry Potter that condone the murder of people who don't share the same vision as you do. That doesn't mean the entire book is evil and a plague upon humanity.

[KukriKhan]

Just for fun, HERE is a link to our discussion in 2005 about the same topic.

[al Roumi]

Just for fun, HERE is a link to our discussion in 2005 about the same topic.

18% say Islam? Amazing to think people are still so ill-informed. To be fair, fracturing the reasons as the poll did is unhelpful as well over half of them do make up part of a fairly convincing narrative that Muslims are at once oppressed and exploited in their countries, whilst the West (self servingly) perpetuates the status-quo. Which, afaik, is Al Qaida's line.

For those who might like to know more, i'd strongly recomend this book by Louise Richardson: "What terrorists want".

[Fragony]

The verses you quoted refer to historical circumstances where the Muslims were attacked. They are not a ticket for every Muslim to kill people.

Nope, by the time it was written the muslims were fighting an offensive campaign.

there's more

Ishaq:208 "When Allah gave permission to his Apostle to fight, the second Aqaba contained conditions involving war which were not in the first act of submission. Now we bound themselves to war against all mankind for Allah and His Apostle. He promised us a reward in Paradise for faithful service. We pledged ourselves to war in complete obedience to Muhammad no matter how evil the circumstances."
Ishaq:472 "Muhammad's Companions are the best in war."
Qur'an:8:7 "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: 'Wipe the infidels out to the last.'"
Qur'an:8:12 "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I am with you. Give firmness to the Believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.'"
Qur'an:8:15 "Believers, when you meet unbelieving infidels in battle while you are marching for war, never turn your backs to them. If any turns his back on such a day, unless it be in a stratagem of war, a maneuver to rally his side, he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge!"
Qur'an:8:39 "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam."
Qur'an:8:45 "O believers! When you meet an army, be firm, and think of Allah's Name much; that you may prosper."
Qur'an:8:57 "If you meet them in battle, inflict on them such a defeat as would be a lesson for those who come after them, that they may be warned."
Qur'an:8:58 "If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think that they can bypass (the law or punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot get away." [Another translation reads:] "The unbelieving infidels should not think that they can bypass Islam; surely they cannot escape."
Qur'an:8:59 "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy."
Qur'an:8:60 "And make ready against the infidels all of the power you can, including steeds of war [the Noble Qur'an says these are: tanks, planes, missiles, and artillery] to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy. And whatever you spend in Allah's Cause shall be repaid unto you." [Another translation reads:] "Prepare against them whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah, and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah's Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you."
Qur'an:8:71 "He will give you mastery over them."
Ishaq:204 "'Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man?' 'Yes. In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging to wage war against all mankind.'"
Ishaq:471 "We are steadfast trusting Him. We have a Prophet by whom we will conquer all men."
Qur'an:4:77 "Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?"
Qur'an:4:71 "Believers, take precautions and advance in detachments or go (on expeditions) together in one troop.'"
Ishaq:322 "Allah said, 'Do not turn away from Muhammad when he is speaking to you. Do not contradict his orders. And do not be a hypocrite, one who pretends to be obedient to him and then disobeys him. Those who do so will receive My vengeance. You must respond to the Apostle when he summons you to war."
Ishaq:544 "Hassan incited the men, reciting: 'This is the time for war. Don't feel safe from us. Our swords will open the door to death.'"
Bukhari:V5B57N1 "Allah's Apostle said, 'A time will come when a group of Muslims will wage a Holy War and it will be said,"Is there anyone who has accompanied Allah's Apostle?" They will say, "Yes." And so victory will be bestowed on them.'"
Ishaq:574 "In faith I do not fear the army of fate. He gave us the blood of their best men to drink when we led our army against them. We are a great army with a pungent smell. And we attack continuously, wherever our enemy is found."
Qur'an:9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:67:20 "Who is he that will send an army to assist you besides Ar-Rahman?"
Tabari IX:115 "The military expeditions (Ghazawat) in which the Messenger personally participated were twenty-six. Some say there were twenty-seven."
Tabari IX:118 "The armies and raiding parties sent by the Messenger of Allah between the time he came to Medina and his death (ten years) was forty-eight."
Qur'an:48:15 "Those who lagged behind (will say), when you marched forth to capture booty in war: 'Permit us to follow you.'"
Qur'an:47:20 "Those who believe say, 'How is it that no surah was sent down (for us)?' But when a categorical [definite or uncompromising] surah is revealed, and fighting and war (Jihad, holy fighting in Allah's Cause) are ordained, you will see those with diseased hearts looking at you (Muhammad) fainting unto death. Therefore woe to them!"
Tabari VIII:159 "The people began to throw dust at the army, saying, 'You retreating runaways. You fled in the Cause of Allah!' But the Messenger said, 'They are not fleers. Allah willing, they are ones who will return to fight another day."
Qur'an:9:25 "Assuredly, Allah did give you victory on many battlefields.... Allah did send down His forces (angels) which you saw not. He punished the Infidels. Such is their reward."
Qur'an:9:41 "March forth (equipped) with light or heavy arms. Strive with your goods and your lives in the Cause of Allah. That is best for you."
Ishaq:548 "The squadrons of the Messenger, composed of Emigrants and Ansar in iron armor with only their eyes visible, passed by. His company had become great. Woe to you, none can withstand him. It was all due to his prophetic office."
Tabari IX:20 "The Messenger and his companions went directly to Ta'if. They encamped there for a fortnight, waging war. The townsfolk fought the Muslims from behind the fort. None came out in the open. All of the surrounding people surrendered and sent their delegations to the Prophet. After besieging Ta'if for twenty days, Muhammad left and halted at Ji'ranah where the captives of Hunayn were held with their women and children. It is alleged that those captives taken numbered six thousand with women and children."
Tabari VIII:176 "The Prophet sent out his army in divisions. Zubayr was in charge of the left wing. He was ordered to make an entry with his forces from Kuda. Sa'd was commanded to enter with forces by way of Kada. Allah's Apostle said, 'Today is a day for battle and war. Sanctuary is no more. Today the sacred territory is deemed profane [ungodly and sacrilegious].' When one of the Muhajirs [Emigrants] heard him say this, he warned the Apostle, 'It is to be feared that you would resort to violence.' The Prophet ordered Ali to go after him, to take the flag from him, and fight with it himself."
Tabari IX:8 "The Messenger marched with 2,000 Meccans and 10,000 of his Companions who had come with him to facilitate the conquest of Mecca. Thus there were 12,000 in all."
Bukhari:V5B59N320 "Allah's Apostle said, 'When your enemy comes near shoot at them but use your arrows sparingly (so that they are not wasted).'"
Ishaq:572 "Muhammad is the man, an Apostle of my Lord. Evil was the state of our enemy so they lost the day. Fortunes change and we came upon them like lions from the thickets. The armies of Allah came openly, flying at them in rage, so they could not get away. We destroyed them and forced them to surrender. In the former days there was no battle like this; their blood flowed freely. We slew them and left them in the dust. Those who escaped were choked with terror. A multitude of them were slain. This is Allah's war in which those who do not accept Islam will have no helper. War destroyed the tribe and fate the clan."
Ishaq:580 "We helped Allah's Apostle, angry on his account, with a thousand warriors. We carried his flag on the end of our lances. We were his helpers, protecting his banner in deadly combat. We dyed it with blood, for that was its color. We were the Prophet's right arm in Islam. We were his bodyguards before other troops served him. We helped him against his opponents. Allah richly rewarded that fine Prophet Muhammad."
Ishaq:583 "Since you have made Khalid chief of the army and promoted him, he has become a chief indeed, leading an army guided by Allah. Firmly clad in mail, warriors with lances leveled, we are a strong force not unlike a rushing torrent. We smite the wicked while we swear an oath to Muhammad...fighting in the quest of booty."
Ishaq:586 "Red blood flowed because of our rage."
Ishaq:587 "Ka'b reacted to the Apostle's decision. He said, 'We put an end to doubt at Khaybar. If our swords could have spoken, their blades would have said, "Give us Daus or Thaqif. We will tear off the roofs in Wajj. We will make homes desolate. Our cavalry will come upon you leaving behind a tangled mass. When we assault a town they sound a cry of alarm but our sharp cutting swords flash like lightning. By them we bring death to those who struggle against us. Flowing blood was mingled with saffron the morn the forces met. They were taken by surprise and we surrounded their walls with our troops. Our leader, the Prophet, was firm, steadfast, and full of wisdom. He was not frivolous nor light minded. We obey our Prophet and we obey a Lord who is Compassionate [Ar-Rahman]. We make you partners in peace and war. If you refuse we will fight you doggedly."
Ishaq:602 "The Apostle ordered Muslims to prepare for a military expedition so that he could raid the Byzantines."
Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with unbelieving Infidels in battle, strike and overpower them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, make them prisoners in bondage until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded. He lets you fight in order to test you. Those who are slain in Allah's Cause will never have their deeds go to waste."
Qur'an:61:14 "O Muslims! Be helpers of Allah...We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they prevailed."
Ishaq:441 "A sharp sword in the hand of a brave man kills his adversary."
Muslim:C34B20N4669 "The Prophet said: 'He who equips a warrior in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights and he who looks after the family of a warrior in the Allah's Cause in fact participated in the battle.'"
Muslim:52B20N4711 "I heard the Messenger delivering a sermon from the pulpit: 'Prepare to meet them with as much strength as you can afford. Beware, strength consists in archery. Beware, strength consists in archery. Beware, strength consists in archery.'"
Muslim:52B20N4712 "I heard the Messenger of Allah say: 'Lands shall be thrown open to you and Allah will suffice you against your enemies, but none of you should give up playing with his arrows.'"
Qur'an:100:1 "I call to witness the (cavalry steeds), the (snorting courses), that run breathing pantingly (rushing off to battle), striking sparks of fire, scouring to the raid at dawn, raising clouds of dust as they penetrate deep into the midst of a foe en masse."
Qur'an:21:44 "Do they see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome."
Ishaq:322 "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who reject Me. So strike off their heads and cut off their fingers. All who oppose Me and My Prophet shall be punished severely."
Qur'an:13:41 "Do they not see Us advancing from all sides into the land (of the disbelievers), reducing its borders (by giving it to believers in war victories)?"
Qur'an:33:22 "When the faithful saw the retreating allied armies this enhanced their faith and obedience...Allah drove the infidels back in their fury so that their resistance was futile."
Ishaq:404 "War has distracted me, but blame me not, 'tis my habit. Struggling with the burdens it imposes, I bear arms bestride my horse at a cavalry's gallop, running like a wild ass in the desert."
Ishaq:4503 "It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah's army is bound to disgrace you. Leaders of the infidels, why did you not learn?"
Tabari VIII:12
Ishaq:451 "I have heard some stories about the digging of the trench in which there is an example of Allah justifying His Apostle and confirming his prophetic office. For example, Muhammad spat on a rock, sprinkled water on it, and it crumbled. Then the Apostle said, 'I struck the first blow and what you saw flash out was that Iraq and Persia would see dog's teeth. Gabriel informed me that my nation would be victorious over them. Then I struck my second blow, and what flashed out was for the pale men in the land of the Byzantines to be bitten by the dog's teeth. Gabriel informed me that my nation would be victorious over them. Then I struck my third blow and Gabriel told me that my nation would be victorious over Yemen. Rejoice, victory shall come. This increased the Muslims faith and submission."
Tabari VIII:13 "These cities were conquered in the time of Umar, Uthman, and others, Muslims used to say, 'Conquer for yourselves whatever seems good to you; for by Allah you have conquered no city but that Muhammad was given its keys beforehand.'"
Ishaq:475 "Allah commanded that horses should be kept for His enemy in the fight so they might vex them. We obeyed our Prophet's orders when he called us to war. When he called for violent efforts we made them. The Prophet's command is obeyed for he is truly believed. He will give us victory, glory, and a life of ease. Those who call Muhammad a liar disbelieve and go astray. They attacked our religion and would not submit."
Ishaq:489 "War is kindled by passing winds. Our swords glitter, cutting through pugnacious heads. Allah puts obstacles in our victims' way to protect His sacred property and our dignity."
Qur'an:24:55 "Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good work that He will make them rulers of the earth. He will establish in authority their religion - the one which He has chosen for them."
Ishaq:594 "The Apostle gave gifts to those whose hearts were to be won over, notably the chiefs of the army, to win them and through them the people."
Qur'an:5:33 "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive after corruption, making mischief in the land [those who refuse to surrender to Islam] is murder, execution, crucifixion, the cutting off of hands and feet on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned. That is their degradation and disgrace in this world. And a great torment of an awful doom awaits them in the hereafter. Except for those who repent (and become Muslims) before you overpower them and they fall into your control."