The Logic and Strategy of Suicide Terrorism

[Lemur]

Fascinating speech linked here, which essentially makes the following point:

In contrast to the popular assertions that terrorists "hate freedom" or want to build a 21st century Caliphate, Pape documents the true driver of suicide attacks: to compel a democracy to remove combat forces from territory the terrorists prize and/or want to liberate. It is not primarily a function of Muslim extremism, even if Muslim terrorists have embraced the tactic. [...]

This doesn't mean that terrorists don't despise Western values or don't, in their minds, hope to restore Islamic rule, it just means that those things don't matter nearly as much as is presumed and don't figure centrally into the history of suicide violence.

I'd embed the video, but our new board software is quite picky about what it will accept. Old-timey link to video, just like they had in grandpappy's day.

[gaelic cowboy]

Very comprehensive talk I knew most of it allready but it was nice to see it all gathered together like he did gave a very good picture of whats really going on.

[KukriKhan]

So it isn't: "My religion compels me to attack the infidel, blowing myself up at the same time, to show my sincerity.", it's:
"Get off my property, you trespasser!".

Interesting. I've order his book Dying to Win.

Was it clear to anyone else (and I just missed it) exactly who Pape was actually addressing in the vid? I sure wish he'd quit with the nervous giggling while talking about dead people, whether bombers or victims. I understand he's excited about his database and the 'new' conclusions he has drawn from it - but the laughter was quite off-putting for me. Hence, I order the book, and check out his database at http://cpost.uchicago.edu/about.php

[gaelic cowboy]

I think he may have been giving the talk to these people it's on the board behind

NewAmerica.net

[Fragony]

Sure you got the right link? I want to hear this but I can't see how long it is, and he's just been talking about a database for a while now

ah, 5 minutes ff

Not yet done, but this is impossible to dismiss. Very interesting a must see.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Fascinating speech linked here, which essentially makes the following point:

In contrast to the popular assertions that terrorists "hate freedom" or want to build a 21st century Caliphate, Pape documents the true driver of suicide attacks: to compel a democracy to remove combat forces from territory the terrorists prize and/or want to liberate. It is not primarily a function of Muslim extremism, even if Muslim terrorists have embraced the tactic. [...]

This doesn't mean that terrorists don't despise Western values or don't, in their minds, hope to restore Islamic rule, it just means that those things don't matter nearly as much as is presumed and don't figure centrally into the history of suicide violence.

I'd embed the video, but our new board software is quite picky about what it will accept. Old-timey link to video, just like they had in grandpappy's day.

I don't buy it, not really. Groups only use suicide terrorism against those they also oppose ideologically. So while he may be right, I suspect the point is moot.

[gaelic cowboy]

I don't buy it, not really. Groups only use suicide terrorism against those they also oppose ideologically. So while he may be right, I suspect the point is moot.

Moot how is it moot policy is being shaped when obviously people don't have the full facts. And you say the word ideologically like it only applies to sucide terrorism all groups be they countries fighting regular war or terrorists oppose there enemy ideologically

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Moot how is it moot policy is being shaped when obviously people don't have the full facts. And you say the word ideologically like it only applies to sucide terrorism all groups be they countries fighting regular war or terrorists oppose there enemy ideologically

Islamic Terrorism does oppose the West Ideologically. They want the West out of the Middle eastern because we are Westernising (read: corrupting). The attacks in America, Britain, and Spain etc. come from an Imperialistic rhetoric which seeks to "conquer the infidel". This is different to, say, Northern Ireland where most people will prefer to give up violence when their living conditions improve. If you improve the living conditions of peoples in the Middle East the Islamists will fight harder.

As far as opposing enemies ideologically, that's not really true. Most wars are fought over material resources.

[Fragony]

I have been watching the video since it was posted, and it's not done yet. It's worth a look, maybe we I got it all wrong.

[gaelic cowboy]

I have been watching the video since it was posted, and it's not done yet. It's worth a look, maybe we I got it all wrong.

It's more a case of we may have focussed on the wrong things now the facts are there maybe the thing can actually be won now if there is such a thing as a win in all this

[gaelic cowboy]

Islamic Terrorism does oppose the West Ideologically. They want the West out of the Middle eastern because we are Westernising (read: corrupting). The attacks in America, Britain, and Spain etc. come from an Imperialistic rhetoric which seeks to "conquer the infidel".

You watched the video but you tuned out the bits that don't fit your view

This is different to, say, Northern Ireland where most people will prefer to give up violence when their living conditions improve. If you improve the living conditions of peoples in the Middle East the Islamists will fight harder.

Zero fact's for this people in Ireland before partition where better off than people say 50 years before therefore by your reckoning it should have lessened violence instead we kicked the empire out.

As far as opposing enemies ideologically, that's not really true. Most wars are fought over material resources.

Show me an example of a war where both countries involved fought over resources and said we don't hate each other we just want the gold it has never happened. The resources are often the reason for the war but the war is sustained by ideological means.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Zero fact's for this people in Ireland before partition where better off than people say 50 years before therefore by your reckoning it should have lessened violence instead we kicked the empire out.

The Irish were still demonstratably worse off than the English, though. Not to mention the English garrisons and the various casual depravities that soldiers might inflict upon young women. The song "Gentleman soldier" comes to mind.

Show me an example of a war where both countries involved fought over resources and said we don't hate each other we just want the gold it has never happened. The resources are often the reason for the war but the war is sustained by ideological means.

What material do we have that Bin Laden wants? Why is he waging war against the West?