Screbrenica happened because the Dutch were busy checking out each others bums.

[HoreTore]

Former NATO commander talks to the US Senate despite a hard case of dementia.

I think the Dutch themselves give the best rebuttal to this:

"It is astonishing that a man of his stature can utter such complete nonsense," Dutch defence ministry spokesman Roger van de Wetering said in response.

I can't even begin to express how happy I am that this is a former NATO commander.

[al Roumi]

Timely edit there! -if by HoreTore himself or a helpful Mod :)

[HoreTore]

Timely edit there! -if by HoreTore himself or a helpful Mod :)

It was done by a HoreTore who has learned from his failures and doesn't want this thread to go down that road....

He acquired such wisdom during his stay in Bergen... ;-)

Seriously, thanks for the self-monitoring.

[Adrian II]

Sheehan must be a Republican. I wonder how soon he'll be caught looking for his keys in a men's room, pantsdown, in the company of a male intern.

[Lemur]

It's true, there does seem to be a disproportionate number of guys who get publicly freaked out over homosexuality who turn out to be ... oh, you know how this story ends.

[HoreTore]

Sheehan must be a Republican. I wonder how soon he'll be caught looking for his keys in a men's room, pantsdown, in the company of a male intern.

He has spent a lifetime in an almost exclusively male organization that doesn't like to blow the whistle(no pun) on irregularities...

[Rhyfelwyr]

Maybe if they sent some gays into the Serbian camps they could have infected them and reduced the enemy morale...

[spmetla]

What a moron, gay soldiers causing a massacre due to lowering morale? Lame excuse, stupid general, and an utter embarrassment.

[Furunculus]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/to...walking-stick/

Gay Dutch soldiers responsible for Srebrenica massacre? Balls. One of the finest British commanders of the Second World War was as bent as a nine-bob note

By Toby Young World Last updated: March 19th, 2010

I was shocked by General John Sheehan’s remarks about “open homosexuality” in the Dutch Army being to blame for the 1995 Srebrenica massacre. (He was testifying in the Senate against President Obama’s plans to end the ban on allowing gays to serve openly in the US military.) Not shocked by his bigotry, but by his ignorance of his own profession. Isn’t the General aware that some of the finest soldiers in the history of warfare have been “openly homosexual”? As Churchill himself said, the three time-honoured traditions of the Royal Navy are rum, buggery and the lash.

I’ll give just one example here, a personal hero of mine: Orde Charles Wingate. Born in 1903, he was educated at Charterhouse and the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich, before being commissioned in the Royal Artillery in 1923. He had what I call “negative charisma” — almost everyone he came into contact with took an instant dislike to him. “As he shambled from one [office] to another, in his creased, ill-fitting uniform and out-of-date Wolsely helmet, carrying an alarm clock instead of waring a watch, and a fly-whisk instead of a cane, I could sense the irritation and resentment he left in his wake,” wrote Wilfred Thesiger, who served under him in Abyssinia. Thesiger, incidentally, was as gay as they come, yet he won a DSO after forcing 2,500 Italian troops to surrender to him.

At Charterhouse, the boys organised “Wingate hunts” and he would take refuge in the school library where he read the Bible. It was during one such episode that he came across a passage which described a “people against whom every man’s hand was turned, yet they remained bloody and unbowed”. From that moment on he became a passionate philosemite and it was in Palestine in the 1930s that he came into his own as a soldier, leading Jewish night squads to repel Arab raids on Jewish communities along the Mosul-Haifa oil pipeline. The military tactics he pioneered during this period — harassing the enemy’s rear with light infantry — were later taken up by the Israeli army and one of the irregulars who served under him was Moshe Dayan. Wingate became so committed to the Zionist cause he was dubbed “Lawrence of Judea” and his superiors became suspicious that he was passing on secret information to the Jews. When he left Palestine in 1939 his Jewish friends blessed him by laying their hands on his head. He was known to them as “hayedid” (the friend).

He was 37 when he arrived in Khartoum in 1940 as a major in the Royal Artillery. He was put in charge of an outfit that consisted of 50 British officers, 20 NCOs and 1,600 Ethiopians and Sudanese. He named this motley crew “Gideon Force” after the Gideon of the Old Testament and led them into Abyssinia to liberate an area occupied by 40,000 Italian troops.

Wingate was notorious for paying scant attention to personal hygiene. Kenneth Anderson, a Reuters correspondent who followed Gideon Force into Abyssinia, wrote: “He was certainly one of the most ruthless chaps I have ever met. Absoltely fearless, tireless and at times uncouth. He never bothered to wash or shave. On the rare occasions when we came to a waterhole, he would lower his trousers and squat with his bottom cooling in the water. But that was as far as he went with his ablutions.”

In the middle of the Abyssinian campaign, by which time he had already forced 20,000 Italian troops to surrender, Wingate radioed his immediate superior, General Cunningham, predicting that 500 of his irregulars could force the remaining 20,000 Italians to surrender within ten days. Cunningham was so appalled by Wingate’s arrogance he ordered him to hand over to his second-in-command. Wingate laughed and fell back on the old trick of pretending his radio was broken. Exactly ten days later he accepted the surrender of the Italian commander-in-chief.

He received no recognition for this feat, but, instead, had his rank reduced for insubordination and was given a desk job in Cairo. Shortly afterwards, he caught Malaria and, during a bout of fever, tried to cut his own throat. “You bloody fool,” said his commanding officer when he visited him in hospital. “Why didn’t you use a revolver?”

Wingate’s abrasive, uncouth manner didn’t endear him to his superiors whom he was fond of calling “military apes”. “Wingate would go in and be bloody rude to one or two generals and leave everybody thinking, ‘Well, I’m damned if I’ll do anything for that bastard!’,” wrote Thesiger.

It wasn’t until he was summoned by Winston Churchill, who’d heard about his exploits in Gojjam, that his fortunes began to change. “We had not talked for half-an-hour, before I felt myself in the presence of a man of the highest quality,” Churchill recalled.

He put Wingate in charge of the Chindits, a group of 3,000 irregulars in Burma, whom he led on guerilla operations against the Japanese, hundreds of miles behind enemy lines. Up until this point in 1943, the Allies had suffered a series of successive defeats for 18 months. According to Mountbatten: “The myth, the legend had grown up assiduously fostered by the Japanese propaganda machine, that the Japanese was a born jungle fighter and was invincible. It was Wingate who proved he was not. It was Wingate’s men who went in and showed that, man to man, they were superior to the Japanese at any game.”

One of the men who served with Wingate in Burma was Bernard Fergusson, who dropped a rank and forsook a desk job at General Headquarters to command one of Wingate’s columns in the first sortie into Burma. “If he told you that you could do something, you were at once sure that you could do it,” he said. “Not one of the men whom we left dead or dying, whether of wounds or more often from starvation, as we struggled on our way, ever upbraided him or me. They were proud of serving under him; they were proud of his very ruthlessness.”

Wingate had a wife back in England, but from the late 30s onwards he was always accompanied by Akavia, his civilian Jewish “companion”. In his autobiography, Thesiger described a typical evening meal for Wingate and Akavia: “I once watched the two of them roast a chicken over a fire. They had no pots or pans, no plates or knives or forks, and when it was cooked, Wingate, squatting on the ground, tore it to pieces with his teeth, getting his hands and face smothered in grease. Having finished he said: ‘Here, Akavia, catch!’ and threw the remains to him.”

Wingate died in a plane crash in 1944. He was 40-years-old, the youngest Major-General in the British Army. He was initially buried in Manila, but his remains were relocated to Arlington in Virginia in 1950 because the majority of the men killed with him in Burma were American. I would suggest that General Sheehan pays a visit to his grave over the weekend and asks his forgiveness for suggesting that homosexuals don’t have the backbone to be good soldiers. According to Churchill, Wingate was “one of the most brilliant and courageous figures of the Second World War.”

best response i have seen so far.

[Sarmatian]

This is great. Serbian parliament is preparing a document about Srebrenica, I must quickly inform them somehow that they shouldn't bother since it's really gay people's fault

What a pathetic little man...

[drone]

And those blue helmets make them look faaaabulous!

[Furunculus]

And those blue helmets make them look faaaabulous!

roflmao! :D

[Louis VI the Fat]

Gays, gah etc.

~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

Srebrenica - the biggest post-WWII genocide in Europe - came about because everybody acted true to the most simplistic national stereotypes:

Paris was useless. The fanciest words of Europe, otherwise a complete no-show even as the entire UN effort in Srebrenica relied on Paris.
Beograd propaganda reversed victim and perpetrator, as it does to this day. (*waves to Brenus and Sarmatian*)
The Church, Orthodox in this case, blessed the mass murderers as they went about their bussines of murdering unarmed civilians.
The Hague gave preference to its own, selling out unarmed civilians then handing out medals to the Dutch soliders who were complicit in genocide.
Greeks volunteered in the massacre, in line with Athens' obstruction of the rest of Europe, as Athens is wont to do.

Washington ended the madness.


The final act of Europe's cursed twentieth century. Or, the entire century recapitulated in a nutshell....

~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

As for the Dutch military, 'gay' may not be the word, but several other rather less complimentary qualifications do spring to mind:



Useless.


A paramilitary mass murderer can't talk like this to an American. Even if outgunned, or caught with his pants down, the Yank wont .... his pants like this but instead would tell that ...... to go .... himself and do his worst. Then move his men to stand with the unarmed citizens, and 'go ahead, but know there won't be a stone left standing in Beograd'.

Instead, of all the military in Europe, these wretched souls had come to rely on exactly the two most useless ones in Europe: the French and the Dutch.



Shame about the homophobia, which is the cause for the outburst, but otherwise the American is spot on about his depiction of the Dutch army in Srebrenica.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuvo...eature=related

[Brenus]

“Srebrenica - the biggest post-WWII genocide in Europe”: War crime, Louis, war crime.

“Beograd propaganda reversed victim and perpetrator, as it does to this day. (*waves to Brenus and Sarmatian*)” No problem.
Beograd try quite smartly (what happen if the Serbs start to be smart now?) to reverse years of western pro Croats, Muslim and Albanian propaganda.
Hard job, but well, they can try.
Not that it will be successful as hard facts are always less efficient that good images and comments with music... As proved by your link...
So a laywer said that the Dutch Soldiers with light equipment would had done something else than die...
Ok, I won't carry on. We had this conversation before and you always come with "you will see"...

So, again: Louis, where is the Pre -war Serbian population of Sebrenica?

Do you follow Karadzic trial? I do. Once again, because this stupid claim of genocide, the Tribunal gave to this murderer a good defense line, basically, prove it.
All the video link you show prove it was a war there.
And a war crime.
In the heavy simplification made by media and the politics, the Criminals find easily matter to cast doubts and easily “break” the prosecutor…
And what happened with the arrest in UK of Ejup Ganic and the Western Hysteria (ok, for those still interested) about it did not improve the confidence I have in a fair trial…
High ranking Bosnian and Croats are not guilty, only Serbs… Even don’t speak of the Kosovo Albanians…
Now, what about Muslim against Muslim? Croats against Muslim? Nothing. No war crimes, no ethnic cleansing for the top levels…

“The Church, Orthodox in this case, blessed the mass murderers as they went about their business of murdering unarmed civilians.” Yeap, it is what churches do.

“selling out unarmed civilians”: Er, I won’t comment. It didn’t exist in Bosnia at that times, in no side…

“Washington ended the madness.” Ah, yes, in supplying and organizing the Croatian Ethnic Cleansing of the Serb population in Croatia… Or in covering the one organized by the K-Albanians against all non Albanians/bad Albanians?
Or perhaps in bombing innocent unarmed population of Belgrade, Novi Sad, and others trains…

“there won't be a stone left standing in Beograd'.” They did it in 1944, finishing of what Hitler had left…
Any way, that could be a good idea, as Belgrade/Beograd was very badly reconstruct during Tito…

“the French and the Dutch.” Poor Dutch, why so much hate…

[Centurion1]

dugo živjeti Croatian domovina.

that being said


What i think is a more pressing issue is whether women can serve in combat roles. Mentally i think they can handle it but physically it would honestly be much more difficult for average woman compared to average male and the whole pregnancy possibilities. One woman in logistics supposedly got her deployment orders but conveniently was pregnant three weeks later.

as for Gays, personally ill respect anyone who wants to serve their nation in times of war, doesn't matter to me what they do with others.

and as someone said on twc this general had a very bad experience in Vietnam as a young captain. Marine on Marine rape. It would disillusion you, neh? And in his statements he blamed it more on a lack of effective leadership than homosexuality.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Do you follow Karadzic trial?

Sure. I'm learning all about his Holy War to avenge five hundred years of history.

Former leader Radovan Karadzic has said the Serb cause in the Bosnian war was "just and holy" as he began his defence at his genocide trial at The Hague.

"I will defend that nation of ours and their cause that is just and holy," Mr Karadzic said in translated comments at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY).
"I stand here before you not to defend the mere mortal that I am, but to defend the greatness of a small nation in Bosnia-Hercegovina, which for 500 years has had to suffer," he told the court.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8542297.stm

[PanzerJaeger]

Pathetic. I would expect more from a man in his position. I wonder if he feels that ruining his reputation was worth taking a crap on the gays....

[HoreTore]

What i think is a more pressing issue is whether women can serve in combat roles. Mentally i think they can handle it but physically it would honestly be much more difficult for average woman compared to average male and the whole pregnancy possibilities. One woman in logistics supposedly got her deployment orders but conveniently was pregnant three weeks later.

We have no problem with women(or gays) in combat roles, there's no reason why you should have any.

[Brenus]

“I will defend that nation of ours and their cause that is just and holy” And because Karadzic said it it is not true that to defend your nation/people/country is an honorable thing to do. WARNING… Trap…Trap…Trap... WARNING

So if Karadzic says the grass is green, we would’t agree…
Interesting…

“I stand here before you not to defend the mere mortal that I am, but to defend the greatness of a small nation in Bosnia-Hercegovina, which for 500 years has had to suffer”: Yeap, the guy is a pyschatris’s case…

[Sarmatian]

dugo živjeti Croatian domovina.

I guess you meant to say long live Croatian homeland, but your syntax is completely wrong so it sounds something like living long for Croatian homeland. Try "Zivjela hrvatska domovina", it sounds much more natural.



And I'm not going to fall into Louis' trap. Srebrenica has been debated on these boards more than enough and anyway, this thread isn't about Srebrenica but about a homophobic American general.

[Fragony]

Quite the idiotic remark.

"Several countries - including Britain, Canada, Australia and Israel - allow openly gay people to serve in the armed services."

Hardly softies.

We have no problem with women(or gays) in combat roles, there's no reason why you should have any.

Viking chicks actually fight? Here they only do transport.

[Centurion1]

I guess you meant to say long live Croatian homeland, but your syntax is completely wrong so it sounds something like living long for Croatian homeland. Try "Zivjela hrvatska domovina", it sounds much more natural.

Using dictionary

We have no problem with women(or gays) in combat roles, there's no reason why you should have any.

i dont have trouble with gays in military. But i do not believe most women can handle a combat load physically unless they are superb specimens. I dont care about gays serving whatsoever tbh.

[Sarmatian]

Using dictionary
.

You mean your mother didn't teach you? I'd be pretty pissed if my wife spoke another language and didn't try to teach our kids... If I ever get married, that is :D

[Viking]

Viking chicks actually fight? Here they only do transport.

It might look like it. Here is an interview with Tone Gunnes, who supposedly killed more than 20 Taliban soliders as a tank gunner (Google Translate).

[Husar]

Yeap, the guy is a pyschatris’s case…

Well, he's about as eloquent as Louis, so that makes sense to me.

Whether the general is homophobic is another question, I just watched the video and noticed the judge or whatever was asking the general with a very commanding voice and the general just responded with "yes".
He didn't even come up with it himself, he just acknowledges that the dutch leadership told him, that gays were part of the problem. Of course the dutch would deny that, do you honestly expect them to openly state that they do think gays are a problem in the military? The Dutch? openly? Don't make me laugh...

What I find disturbing about Louis's video with the dutch soldiers was that they were saying that they were sad and all that but not one of them looked sad, I even got the impression some of them were smirking, almost smiling, maybe there's something I'm missing but it was very weird.

Other than that, women and gays belong in the kitchen.

[CrossLOPER]

I guess you meant to say long live Croatian homeland, but...

Calm to the last or just weary?

[HoreTore]

But i do not believe most women can handle a combat load physically unless they are superb specimens.

Experience shows your prejudices on this to be completely wrong. It also reveals a logical failure; the strength of the average woman is irrelevant, since only the fittest % will join the army, and they will face the same challenges as males. The army has a bunch of tests to weed out those not fit for service. Women would be subject to the exact same tests, and those who pass should have absolutely no problem with combat.

Anyway, google some pictures of female athletes, then tell me they're not strong enough for combat.

It might look like it. Here is an interview with Tone Gunnes, who supposedly killed more than 20 Taliban soliders as a tank gunner (Google Translate).

"Looks like it"? What lie did you use to get out of the army...?

Anyway. The Norwegian ISAF contigent has a high percentage of women, much higher than the percentage of women serving in our forces here. Why? It's because women aren't subject to conscription, and so if they do join the army it's because they want to do something, and that usually means serving abroad. And yes, they operate our tanks, our BV206 guns, join MB patrols, do guard duty, etc etc. In short, they do everything a male soldier does, and they do it just as well.

BTW, I personally know 3 women who have served in Afghanistan. And Tone Gunnes actually served with a childhood friend of mine.

[Viking]

"Looks like it"? What lie did you use to get out of the army...?

Apparently not all countries allow women all the way to the frontline. Of course I have not been in the army, as a clever uni student I de facto opted out.

[HoreTore]

Apparently not all countries allow women all the way to the frontline. Of course I have not been in the army, as a clever uni student I de facto opted out.

I'm ready to laugh my behind off when your sorry arse is dragged to Skjold after your gradution....

[Sarmatian]

What I find disturbing about Louis's video with the dutch soldiers was that they were saying that they were sad and all that but not one of them looked sad, I even got the impression some of them were smirking, almost smiling, maybe there's something I'm missing but it was very weird.

Other than that, women and gays belong in the kitchen.

Well, by the virtue of being there, they knew what was happening. Srebrenica was supposed to be a demilitarized zone under the protection of the UN. In fact, Srebrenica was used as base of operations for launching attacks on the surrounding area constantly and Dutch soldiers knew that, but they weren't allowed to do anything about and were naturally bloody annoyed by it, because they knew that Bosnian Serbs will get tired eventually and launch an attack.

I don't really blame the guys. They were 2000 km from home, in a middle of nowhere, poorly armed, abandoned by pretty much everyone and they were supposed to die to protect a bunch of scumbags from another bunch of scumbags?

Calm to the last or just weary?

?