Promising Athenian FM and Agoge

[Poulp']

I started a KH campaign and I now have a small problem; there's a Athenian FM who came of age and he's the perfect candidate for the Agoge. Picture this; he's Sharp/Charismatic/Vigorous, Unselfish/Optimistic/Loyal with some great additional traits (In Rude Health, Positive, Stern).

Advisor popped up to tell me to send him to the Agoge, but should I ?
How, RP-wise, can I explain sending an Athenian to Sparta for "education" ?

I'm trying to roleplay my whole campaign so powerleveling is out of the question.

[anubis88]

I started a KH campaign and I now have a small problem; there's a Athenian FM who came of age and he's the perfect candidate for the Agoge. Picture this; he's Sharp/Charismatic/Vigorous, Unselfish/Optimistic/Loyal with some great additional traits (In Rude Health, Positive, Stern).

Advisor popped up to tell me to send him to the Agoge, but should I ?
How, RP-wise, can I explain sending an Athenian to Sparta for "education" ?



I'm trying to roleplay my whole campaign so powerleveling is out of the question.

I don't know for sure, but i think i read somewhere that foreigners joined the Agoge from time to time. Not sure though... Perhaps someone alse will shed a light on the subject

[Cute Wolf]

NEVER!!! Only True Spartans (and Occasionally Cretans and Rhodians), could train at the agoge! Athenians are too weak and best left to calculate some projectile trajectory...

*) If you decide to sent them out, fine, but don't complain when they start gaining numerous bad traits...

[Ludens]

Amongst the conservative elements of the Athenian upper class there were many admirers of the Spartan system. I don't think any of them actually sent their sons to Sparta, but then relations between the two cities were often bad. If, however, in your scenario the KH alliance has been successful and the cities are now at least cordial towards one another, you could RP it as a conservative, pro-Spartan politician sending his son to train with his political allies.

[VIPERLORD]

Hmmmm, I guess from a roleplay perspective you could always view sending the FM to the agoge with a duel purpose. A) he gets cool training and B) keep your friends close and your enemies closer. If you are the espionage type then think of it as a deliberate way of getting someone close to the spartans. Just not toooooo close (those barracks can be a bit 5cent 50cent).

[Duguntz]

i agree with cute wolf. Even as a roleplay reason : sparta wouldn't accept non-spartan in the agoge, because THIS IS SPARTA...

[Poulp']

Amongst the conservative elements of the Athenian upper class there were many admirers of the Spartan system. I don't think any of them actually sent their sons to Sparta, but then relations between the two cities were often bad. If, however, in your scenario the KH alliance has been successful and the cities are now at least cordial towards one another, you could RP it as a conservative, pro-Spartan politician sending his son to train with his political allies.

In-game, Sparta and Athens are part of the same faction, and that's about all.
I even "delayed" (waited until my initial army was badly mauled) Athenian reinforcements so that they could claim that without their help, the Spartan army wouldn't have seized the day. Spartans leaders evened the score when they saved Athens from the Chalkis fullstack.
What's more, the new KH capital is now Corinth, because 1/ it is neither Sparta nor Athens 2/ the city was liberated after a heroic victory.

RP-wise, I'm taking things really slow and I'm still far from having an unified KH, but the lad is still 16. 30-40 years later, I think I could roleplay him unifying the league. Or at least, unifying mainland Greece while competiton between cities still takes place in the colonies among the Mediterranean.

Edit: Granted, any Spartiate is trained in Sparta, even disappointing FM (who in turn, may be sent to hunt pirates...).

[ertai1987]

oh well, non-spartan FMs get a spartan hoplites general's bodyguard anyways.

[Hax]

oh well, non-spartan FMs get a spartan hoplites general's bodyguard anyways.

They do not. They get the Somatophylakes Strategou.

[moonburn]

you can always roleplay that 17 years prior the spartan king and the athenian aristocracy gathered to discuss some stuff and after being pissed by the philosophers making fun of him in a witty way he took his revenge by pissing on the wrong cup aka as the athenian leaders wife and thus after seing their son he feels a bit "fatherly" towards the kid and challanges him to participate in the agoge

or ofc you can always create one hell of a mess in the midle of the discussions about the future of the league getting the spartans all spunked up calling the athenian weakling cowards and the athenians and rhodians calling the spartans no better then filthy stinky barbarians and from then on role play that they made a bet and that poor kid will have to pass on the agoge or the spartans abandon the league but if he passes the spartans must respect the league "democratic" ways and stop making powerplays to grab the leadership

[samba_liten]

I don't know how the script works in EB, but certain foreigners did send their sons to be educated at Sparta. Xenophon springs to mind. Perhaps from an RP perspective the FM could do it if his father spent a long time as governor of Sparta, or as a general.

[Cute Wolf]

you can always roleplay that 17 years prior the spartan king and the athenian aristocracy gathered to discuss some stuff and after being pissed by the philosophers making fun of him in a witty way he took his revenge by pissing on the wrong cup aka as the athenian leaders wife and thus after seing their son he feels a bit "fatherly" towards the kid and challanges him to participate in the agoge

or ofc you can always create one hell of a mess in the midle of the discussions about the future of the league getting the spartans all spunked up calling the athenian weakling cowards and the athenians and rhodians calling the spartans no better then filthy stinky barbarians and from then on role play that they made a bet and that poor kid will have to pass on the agoge or the spartans abandon the league but if he passes the spartans must respect the league "democratic" ways and stop making powerplays to grab the leadership

LOL! Too bad, any son of Athenian couldn't be spartan except by removing traits via console and adding different ethnicity afterwards... :p

[Ca Putt]

the fun thing about the KH is you can do about everything without fearing to be utterly ahistorical, mainly because being historical would mean to loose right away and we all know that would be boring ;)

on topic: who is the father of this young man? I would check what kind of man he is and accordingly send the young lad to the agoge or not. If he is a decorated(at least ?one? star^^ and ...five? influence) general and does not have any absolutely UNspartan traits it is probable that the spartans would let his son undergo the Agoge. if he is at least somewhat militarist and/or conservative he maybe would send his son to Sparta in times of friendship between Sparta and Athens.

Personally I send most boys I wish to become Generals to learn in Sparta and all I think to become governors to Athens.

PS: what to do with Korintheans? they don't seem to be good at anything :(

[Ludens]

In-game, Sparta and Athens are part of the same faction, and that's about all.
I even "delayed" (waited until my initial army was badly mauled) Athenian reinforcements so that they could claim that without their help, the Spartan army wouldn't have seized the day. Spartans leaders evened the score when they saved Athens from the Chalkis fullstack.

That's pretty much the way I RP the KH . Unless his father is a vocal member of the pro-Spartan faction of Athens, there is no way his son could undergo the agoge.

oh well, non-spartan FMs get a spartan hoplites general's bodyguard anyways.

They do not. They get the Somatophylakes Strategou.

To be precise: all KH FMs get the hoplite Somathophylakes, with the exception of the three Spartan FMs present at the start of the game.

I don't know how the script works in EB, but certain foreigners did send their sons to be educated at Sparta. Xenophon springs to mind. Perhaps from an RP perspective the FM could do it if his father spent a long time as governor of Sparta, or as a general.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Although from an RP perspective it is unlikely that anyone but a Spartan would be in charge of Sparta. Not to mention that, in my experience, Athenian FMs do very badly when governing a type I town.

BTW, the agoge is trait-based and not script-based. All characters of Hellenic factions can undergo the agoge, provided they have the "young" trait at the start. The young trait is age-based (16-20 years old), but because the trait-engine cannot "see" the age of adopted/married/man-of-the-hour characters those always start out as "man grown" and cannot participate in the agoge.

[Duguntz]

Question : was it impossible to give a spartan FM unit for those born from spartan father, or in sparta itself? why does everyone got the Somathophylakes?

[V.T. Marvin]

You can have only one type of FM bodyguard unit for a given faction (and another one after the vanilla marian reform). Therefore all KH FMs get those somatophylakes as a generic greek general unit. Those few Spartans at the beginning are an exception allowed by the fact that the starting characters, their position and bodyguard unit are defined in the descr_strat.txt.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

character	Areus Agiados, named character, leader, command 0, influence 0, management 0, subterfuge 0, age 55, , x 144, y 94
traits NaturalIntelligence 4 , NaturalCharisma 3 , NaturalEnergy 2 , Selflessness 3 , Loyalty 5 , Temperament 3 , TurnsAlive 6 , Spartiates 1 , AreusEurypontidosBiography 1 , CommandExperience 4 , GoodTactician 1 , GoodAdministrator 2 , NumancillariesAcquired 3 , YearsPassed 4 , Father 3 , FamilyMember 1
ancillaries brilliant_inventor , playwright , clerk
army
unit		hellenistic infantry spartiateshoplitai				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		hellenistic missile cretan archers				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 1
unit		greek skirmisher akontistai				exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek infantry taxeis hoplitai				exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek infantry taxeis hoplitai				exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

; City: Athenai
; Region: Attike
; --------------------
character	Chremonides Aithalidos, named character, command 0, influence 0, management 0, subterfuge 0, age 50, , x 144, y 108
traits NaturalIntelligence 5 , NaturalCharisma 5 , NaturalEnergy 5 , Selflessness 1 , Loyalty 3 , Temperament 2 , TurnsAlive 5 , Athenaios 1 , ChremonidesAithalidosBiography 1 , CommandExperience 3 , GoodAdministrator 2 , GoodTrader 2 , GoodTactician 1 , LogisticalSkill 1 , Drink 1 , NumancillariesAcquired 2 , FamilyMember 1
ancillaries merchant , family_retainer
army
unit		greek infantry greek general				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		hellenistic infantry hoplitai				exp 2 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek infantry taxeis hoplitai				exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek missile sphendenotai				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
; scriptunits - include units below only when human player is Makedonia
;unit		greek cavalry hippeis thessalikoi merc			exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
;unit		hellenistic infantry hoplitai				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
;unit		hellenistic infantry hoplitai				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
;unit		greek missile toxotai				        exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

; City: Rhodos
; Region: Rhodos
; --------------------
character	Agathokles Rhodios, named character, command 0, influence 0, management 0, subterfuge 0, age 67, , x 161, y 101
traits NaturalIntelligence 5 , NaturalCharisma 3 , NaturalEnergy 4 , Selflessness 2 , Loyalty 3 , Temperament 4 , TurnsAlive 7 , Rhodios 1 , AgathoklesBiography 1 , CommandExperience 3 , GoodAdministrator 3 , GoodTactician 1 , NumancillariesAcquired 2 , FamilyMember 1
ancillaries comedian , family_retainer
army
unit		greek infantry greek general				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek infantry taxeis hoplitai				exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek missile sphendenotai				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

; City: Sparte
; Region: Lakonike
; --------------------
character	Akrotatos Agiados, named character, heir, command 0, influence 0, management 0, subterfuge 0, age 23, , x 138, y 103
traits NaturalIntelligence 5 , NaturalCharisma 3 , NaturalEnergy 4 , Selflessness 3 , Loyalty 3 , Temperament 4 , TurnsAlive 2 , Spartiates 1 , AkrotatosBiography 1 , GoodAdministrator 3 , NumancillariesAcquired 2 , GoodDefender 1 , CommandExperience 3 , YearsPassed 4 , NumancillariesAcquired 2 , FirstBorn 1 , FamilyMember 1
ancillaries comedian , family_retainer
army
unit		hellenistic infantry spartiateshoplitai				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek infantry taxeis hoplitai				exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek skirmisher akontistai				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek missile sphendenotai				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

; City: Sparte
; Region: Lakonike
; --------------------
character	Eudamidas Eurypontidos, named character, command 0, influence 0, management 0, subterfuge 0, age 35, , x 138, y 102
traits NaturalIntelligence 2 , NaturalCharisma 1 , NaturalEnergy 2 , Selflessness 1 , Loyalty 2 , Temperament 4 , TurnsAlive 2 , Spartiates 1 , ExpensiveTastes 2 , YearsPassed 4 , NumancillariesAcquired 2 , FamilyMember 1
ancillaries comedian , family_retainer
army
unit		hellenistic infantry spartiateshoplitai				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek infantry taxeis hoplitai				exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
unit		greek skirmisher akontistai				exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

Therefore it is impossible to have different units used for FM who, from the game-engine POW differ only in a certain trait. That the Spartiates were implemented for the initial Spartans just proves how much effort the EB team puts even into the most insignificant details a how far they were able to go in pushing the engine limits to the utmost!

[Duguntz]

Thanks for a so presice reply! it is much apreciated!