is there free will?

[The Stranger]

a question:

if there is no rational mind which makes choices do people still have free will? and if not, when a person has no free will, are they no longer free?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

It depends on what you mean by free will

e.g. guidance control vs regulative control

[Beskar]

As Sasaki went into, it is Semantics.

Define free will.

Is having predictable behaviour classed as free will? such as, you enjoy pepperoni pizza, therefore if I gave you pepperoni pizza, I predict you would enjoy it, and when I gave it you, you did.

As well as personalised tastes, people follow rituals. People generally do the same things all the time, we are creatures of habit. You don't suddenly randomly put on a pink dress and walk out the door just because you chose to, though given circumstances and your behaviour patterns, you might.

Hypothetically speaking, if I had all the data to how you would respond to something, I could hypothetically tell you your entire life story and how you would react in certain situations. Does this mean you process no free-will? No freedom to make a choice?

Answer is, you do have the freedom to pick up that pizza and eat it or not, however, behaviour is inherently predictable given if you know a certain about of information about a person, so I could predict what you would freely choose.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

a question:

if there is no rational mind which makes choices do people still have free will? and if not, when a person has no free will, are they no longer free?

Who says there is no rational mind? I need more context.

[gaelic cowboy]

a question:

if there is no rational mind which makes choices do people still have free will? and if not, when a person has no free will, are they no longer free?

We can still make choices when in an irrational mind so no your question is wrong

[Beskar]

Re-reading the OP, I think it might be more towards people with learning disabilities or mental illness. Yes, they still have free-will, if it is that.

[KukriKhan]

is there free will?

Of course there is. Because I will it, as do you (all). Without it, there is no randomization or chaos or anarchy, only rock-solid predictability. It is, after all, the Original SIN of Judeo-Christo-Muslo philosophy and tradition, which we are all supposed to be cured of by LAW (a subservience of our free will to a greater good), or a savior.

[Centurion1]

Who says there is no rational mind? I need more context.

mentally impaired, small children is what i think he is hinting at as beskar has answered.

[Beskar]

There may be limited conceptual and educated choices in comparison, but there is still free will.

[CountArach]

I follow Sartre on this one, and say that yes there is free will and that we can know this through angst and anxiety.

[The Stranger]

to avoid confusion, the question is hypothetical. i dont conclude there is no rational mind, but if there is none, what would be the case.

Sasaki i will come back to your question soon. and as to beskar, that is not what i meant. i mean more, do we have control over our own actions or are they determined. if you can predict my actions but not alter them than you have no control, so my will is still free if already was in the first place.

the modern definition of free will, at least in the dictionaries includes the requirement of rationality.

Free will is the purported ability of rational agents to exercise control over their actions, decisions, or choices to such an extent that they can be held responsible for their selections. (wikipedia)

“Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. (stanford)

and so the list continues.

maybe i should add another question, does an animal have free will. an animal like a pig per example.

[The Stranger]

We can still make choices when in an irrational mind so no your question is wrong

a question cannot be wrong. :P

[The Stranger]

I follow Sartre on this one, and say that yes there is free will and that we can know this through angst and anxiety.

meh but sartre's idea(l) of freedom and free will is unliveable. more over its unrational. so if we would apply the modern definition of free will to it, we would still not have free will according to the definition while sartre does contribute free will to the person in such cases.

[CountArach]

meh but sartre's idea(l) of freedom and free will is unliveable.

Actually his branch of existential thought is far more practically applicable than any other form of philosophy. I follow it, for instance. The simple idea is "we have free will and with that comes all the responsibility in the Universe to do what is right by our standards." That is a very workable and liveable philosophy.

[The Stranger]

Actually his branch of existential thought is far more practically applicable than any other form of philosophy. I follow it, for instance. The simple idea is "we have free will and with that comes all the responsibility in the Universe to do what is right by our standards." That is a very workable and liveable philosophy.

oh yes it is, and i agree. but sartre puts it so radical it becomes unliveable in the pure form he intends it. that was all i meant.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If you lay out five different objects that have been rated as equally appealing by test groups, they will pick one and say they picked it because they liked it the best, pointing out some feature of the object that made them pick it. But in actuality they pick the one on the far right 80% of the time.

So you have to ask: in all of our "choices" are the reasons we think we have the actual reasons?

But then, what do you call our capacity to resist our basic urges at times, and the effect our thoughts can have on our actions?

I would replace free will with "will", the urge to follow a set of beliefs rather than our "lower" (for lack of a better word) urges.

I follow Sartre on this one, and say that yes there is free will and that we can know this through angst and anxiety.

I don't understand this...

[Rhyfelwyr]

I would replace free will with "will"

This is always exactly what I have thought on the issue. People then say that if the path you choose is always inevitable due to your own nature, then this makes you a robot. But surely with this logic all that 'free will' would mean is that we were robots with a random element in decision making.

[The Stranger]

im also trying to find a definition of will or free will in which the rational element is excluded. we are free as a body i believe. i will explain more after dinner.

[The Stranger]

I don't understand this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism#Angst

its sartre's philosophy based mostly on kierkegaard and heidegger's philosophy.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism#Angst

its sartre's philosophy based mostly on kierkegaard and heidegger's philosophy.

Angst, sometimes called dread, anxiety or even anguish is a term that is common to many existentialist thinkers. It is generally held to be the experience of humans' freedom and responsibility. The archetypal example is the experience one has when standing on a cliff where one not only fears falling off it, but also dreads the possibility of throwing oneself off. In this experience that "nothing is holding me back", one senses the lack of anything that predetermines one to either throw oneself off or to stand still, and one experiences one's own freedom.

There's a simple psychological mechanism for that "dread the possibility of throwing yourself off" bit though. The only way to make sure you don't do something is to have like a process running that checks to see if you are doing it. But the awareness of that check can be anxiety inducing.

That's the trouble with trying to answer psychological questions with philosophy. I don't find it to be an argument for free will anyway, because in that situation I wouldn't really be worried about my choosing to throw myself off the cliff of my own free will, but of something making me jump off the cliff against my will.

[drone]

Of course!

[The Stranger]

There's a simple psychological mechanism for that "dread the possibility of throwing yourself off" bit though. The only way to make sure you don't do something is to have like a process running that checks to see if you are doing it. But the awareness of that check can be anxiety inducing.

That's the trouble with trying to answer psychological questions with philosophy. I don't find it to be an argument for free will anyway, because in that situation I wouldn't really be worried about my choosing to throw myself off the cliff of my own free will, but of something making me jump off the cliff against my will.

i think the example sux... if i have time ill try to give good one.

[Reenk Roink]

Everything is predestined from eternity even one's choices, so they don't have free will in the commonly thought sense of being able to choose differently.

im also trying to find a definition of will or free will in which the rational element is excluded. we are free as a body i believe. i will explain more after dinner.

If you take a (naively) non deterministic view of the world, then human actions aren't caused or influenced by anything, "rational" considerations or not. So if you wish to go that way you can have it.

[Beskar]

Everything is predestined from eternity even one's choices, so they don't have free will in the commonly thought sense of being able to choose differently.

This has always been an interesting point of view especially with religion such as Christianity which believes in redemption. Hypothetically, if there is no free will then what is the point in redemption? As the end result, the Lord Almighty will know that we will commit sin and in the same breath the Lord Almighty would know if we will redeem ourselves or not. then the act of redemption becomes trivial as ultimately we are slaves to our destiny and we do not have the choice to redeem ourselves, as our fate has already been decided.

[Reenk Roink]

This has always been an interesting point of view especially with religion such as Christianity which believes in redemption. Hypothetically, if there is no free will then what is the point in redemption? As the end result, the Lord Almighty will know that we will commit sin and in the same breath the Lord Almighty would know if we will redeem ourselves or not. then the act of redemption becomes trivial as ultimately we are slaves to our destiny and we do not have the choice to redeem ourselves, as our fate has already been decided.

The problem comes because many people seem to require a sense of free will for moral responsibility (in both secular and religious contexts).

Aquinas made a really good case for double predestination (of the elect and the damned), even though I don't think it's an idea the Catholic Church endorses (correct me if I'm wrong Catholics).

[The Stranger]

Everything is predestined from eternity even one's choices, so they don't have free will in the commonly thought sense of being able to choose differently.



If you take a (naively) non deterministic view of the world, then human actions aren't caused or influenced by anything, "rational" considerations or not. So if you wish to go that way you can have it.

wow reenk how very constructive of you haha... who the hell is being naive thinking he has knowledge. that he knows the truth of anything?

if everything is predestined, by what is it predestined?

[The Stranger]

The problem comes because many people seem to require a sense of free will for moral responsibility (in both secular and religious contexts).

Aquinas made a really good case for double predestination (of the elect and the damned), even though I don't think it's an idea the Catholic Church endorses (correct me if I'm wrong Catholics).

i dont know... aquinas is one of the major authorithies for christianity and has been redeemed quit alot since the 19th century. so its much possible.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Aquninine determinsim, itself essentially Augustinian in nature, was rejected as heterodox by the Catholic Church, and remains so today. Interestingly, Aquinas also proposed that beings are capable of independent agency seperate from God's direct control. From my persepctive, it seems that every attempt to remove Free Will from the Christian worldview is born of angst over relatively minor questions regarding how God's own nature and Divine Knowledge interact with the world he created.

broadly speaking, determinists usually feel the need to explain away one of two logical inconsistancies. The first is that God is all powerful, but that Free Will allows beings to rebel against God's power; the argument is easily undone by stating that God allows rebellion (Sin), but does not condone it. The second argument relates to God's constancy and his Onnicience. While this is harder to answer, it is easy to ignore because, bluntly, the Bible contains numerous instances of rebellion, so it clearly does happen.

On to the more philosophical question:

Why must the exercise of Free Will require reationality, and how do we define who is "rational"? For me, Free Will is apparent because if there were no Free Will or Random Chance the universe would be a perfectly ordered and regular place. It would also be a lot less interesting.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

On to the more philosophical question:

Why must the exercise of Free Will require reationality, and how do we define who is "rational"? For me, Free Will is apparent because if there were no Free Will or Random Chance the universe would be a perfectly ordered and regular place. It would also be a lot less interesting.

The problems I see with this are:

a) Who says there isn't random chance?
b) How do you know the universe isn't orderly? It could be a very complex order.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The problems I see with this are:

a) Who says there isn't random chance?
b) How do you know the universe isn't orderly? It could be a very complex order.

Well, I claim there is random chance, and it therefore follows that there is random chance in our decision making. This being so, our decisions are not pre-determined, ergo Free Will is possible.

As to the Universe being orderly, Quantum Theory tells us that a situation has a variety of possible outcomes with varrying probability, not one pre-determined outcome.