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Translated by myself from Dutch:
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I think that this is exactly what the world needs. I think they've done a great job in trying to undermine the basis that the fundamentalist Islamic organisations use. This is excellent news.
Originally Posted by De Volkskrant, 01/04/2010:
Prominent Islamic scholars distance themselves from fatwa
PARIS - Several important Islamic scholars have stated that a famous medieval fatwa that propogates holy war, can no longer be used in the modern world to justify the killing of opponents.
According to the scholars, who met at an international conference in Turkey, the 14th century religious creed by the scholar Ibn Taymiyya excludes the use of militant violence. They also stated that the medieval, Islamic division of the world into a world of Islam and a house of non-believers is no longer valid.
'Everyone that seeks support in this fatwa to kill muslim or non-muslims is wrong in his interpretation of this fatwa', said the scholars in a declaration concerning Taymiyya's fatwa.
Osama Bin Laden, the leader of Al-Qaeda, has frequently cited Taymiyya's text to justify the global, holy battle against the United States.
By themselves
'It is not a decision of individual muslims or islamic organisations to declare or join a holy war by themselves,' stated the scholars, meaning that the fatwa they refered to is not fit in a modern world where human rights and freedom of religion is respected.
This statement is one of the many attempts by moderate Islamic scholars to use century-old Islamic texts to battle the arguments of fundamentalist organisations. Last month, a prominent Pakistani scholar presented a 600-page fatwa that was directed against terrorism. Apart from that, recently, there was a fatwa that called for peace in the civil war-ridden Somalia. According to the Islamic scholars, these kinds of statements should stop Muslims from supporting fundamentalists.
Historical context
More than 15 prominent scholars from Kuwait, Iran, Morocco, Indonesia, Saudi-Arabia and other countries were present during the conference. Amongst them were the Bosnian grand mufti Mustafa Ceric and the Yemenite Sheikh Habib Aki [sic, should be Ali] Al-Jifri. Taymiyya's fatwa is often cited by fundamentalists to justify the war against 'non-believers'. According to the 15 scholars, however, his words should be seen in a historical context, when the Mongols invaded islamic lands. They also stated that Islam should be continually re-interpreted because of the continuously changing political circumstances.
Original article in Dutch: here.Prominent Islamic scholars distance themselves from fatwa
PARIS - Several important Islamic scholars have stated that a famous medieval fatwa that propogates holy war, can no longer be used in the modern world to justify the killing of opponents.
According to the scholars, who met at an international conference in Turkey, the 14th century religious creed by the scholar Ibn Taymiyya excludes the use of militant violence. They also stated that the medieval, Islamic division of the world into a world of Islam and a house of non-believers is no longer valid.
'Everyone that seeks support in this fatwa to kill muslim or non-muslims is wrong in his interpretation of this fatwa', said the scholars in a declaration concerning Taymiyya's fatwa.
Osama Bin Laden, the leader of Al-Qaeda, has frequently cited Taymiyya's text to justify the global, holy battle against the United States.
By themselves
'It is not a decision of individual muslims or islamic organisations to declare or join a holy war by themselves,' stated the scholars, meaning that the fatwa they refered to is not fit in a modern world where human rights and freedom of religion is respected.
This statement is one of the many attempts by moderate Islamic scholars to use century-old Islamic texts to battle the arguments of fundamentalist organisations. Last month, a prominent Pakistani scholar presented a 600-page fatwa that was directed against terrorism. Apart from that, recently, there was a fatwa that called for peace in the civil war-ridden Somalia. According to the Islamic scholars, these kinds of statements should stop Muslims from supporting fundamentalists.
Historical context
More than 15 prominent scholars from Kuwait, Iran, Morocco, Indonesia, Saudi-Arabia and other countries were present during the conference. Amongst them were the Bosnian grand mufti Mustafa Ceric and the Yemenite Sheikh Habib Aki [sic, should be Ali] Al-Jifri. Taymiyya's fatwa is often cited by fundamentalists to justify the war against 'non-believers'. According to the 15 scholars, however, his words should be seen in a historical context, when the Mongols invaded islamic lands. They also stated that Islam should be continually re-interpreted because of the continuously changing political circumstances.
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I think that this is exactly what the world needs. I think they've done a great job in trying to undermine the basis that the fundamentalist Islamic organisations use. This is excellent news.
Wow, taking a stand against murder and terrorism.
Color me impressed.
Color me impressed.
april fools!
No april fool's this is real. I will accept any anyone's effort to make something out of this mess from whatever angle, and this appears to be genuine.
Isnt the religion opposed to stay the same and politics be changing? If your religion is true how can you change it? Changing the truth just doesnt make sense.
Not change religion, but the perception of religion. I think that's what they mean.
Originally Posted by Hax:
Not change religion, but the perception of religion. I think that's what they mean.
Too late I think, we will never be able to treat the Islamic world equally because it isn't equal by our own standards and never will be, that's the sad truth. Why are you defending them they would cut of your mom's head without feeling anything at all.Not change religion, but the perception of religion. I think that's what they mean.
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Too late I think, we will never be able to treat the Islamic world equally because it isn't equal by our own standards and never will be, that's the sad truth. Why are you defending them they would cut of your mom's head without feeling anything at all.
You assume it has always and will always be this way. History and people are cyclicalToo late I think, we will never be able to treat the Islamic world equally because it isn't equal by our own standards and never will be, that's the sad truth. Why are you defending them they would cut of your mom's head without feeling anything at all.
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
You assume it has always and will always be this way. History and people are cyclical
It is already too late, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Aim...layer_embedded <- that, is hostile.You assume it has always and will always be this way. History and people are cyclical
Originally Posted by Fragony:
It is already too late, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Aim...layer_embedded <- that, is hostile.
Well yes, but how do his kids think?It is already too late, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Aim...layer_embedded <- that, is hostile.
Originally Posted by Mooks:
Isnt the religion opposed to stay the same and politics be changing? If your religion is true how can you change it? Changing the truth just doesnt make sense.
Isnt the religion opposed to stay the same and politics be changing? If your religion is true how can you change it? Changing the truth just doesnt make sense.
Originally Posted by Hax:
Not change religion, but the perception of religion. I think that's what they mean.
Apparently, the Qu'ran says that Islam will be (and should be) re-interpreted and reformed successively throughout the ages.Not change religion, but the perception of religion. I think that's what they mean.
Frag's, do you really think it's already too late? I mean, I guess you must to say the things you do but if you really believe that you'd be better off living in a cave...
Fragony, some days you sound like you would really, truly prefer another world war to any sort of rapproachment or understanding between the Muslim world and everybody else. I would argue that co-opting is both less expensive and more efficient than death camps and genocide. Which are the natural extension of your position, if you are truly asserting that Islam is both incompatible with modernity and incapable of change and/or moderation.
Remember your Sun Tzu, O Dutch saber-rattler: "Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
Remember your Sun Tzu, O Dutch saber-rattler: "Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
Originally Posted by Lemur:
Fragony, some days you sound like you would really, truly prefer another world war to any sort of rapproachment or understanding between the Muslim world and everybody else. I would argue that co-opting is both less expensive and more efficient than death camps and genocide. Which are the natural extension of your position, if you are truly asserting that Islam is both incompatible with modernity and incapable of change and/or moderation.
Remember your Sun Tzu, O Dutch saber-rattler: "Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
He's seeking clarity in an unclear world, Lemur. The beauty of armed struggle is not its violence, but its lack of ambiguity. "Us or them" ties everything up in a nice neat little package.Fragony, some days you sound like you would really, truly prefer another world war to any sort of rapproachment or understanding between the Muslim world and everybody else. I would argue that co-opting is both less expensive and more efficient than death camps and genocide. Which are the natural extension of your position, if you are truly asserting that Islam is both incompatible with modernity and incapable of change and/or moderation.
Remember your Sun Tzu, O Dutch saber-rattler: "Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
Originally Posted by :
Why are you defending them they would cut of your mom's head without feeling anything at all.
Ugh. I wish you'd stop saying such idiotic things. Among "them"(I assume you mean the entire world population of Muslims) there are very, very few people that have an intention of cutting anyone's head off. And don't bloody try and make it personal, whether it's my neighbour, my cat, my mother, or George W. Bush, every kind of killing is horrible and is to be avoided.Why are you defending them they would cut of your mom's head without feeling anything at all.
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
He's seeking clarity in an unclear world, Lemur. The beauty of armed struggle is not its violence, but its lack of ambiguity. "Us or them" ties everything up in a nice neat little package.
I am not that simple. I am not an idiot.He's seeking clarity in an unclear world, Lemur. The beauty of armed struggle is not its violence, but its lack of ambiguity. "Us or them" ties everything up in a nice neat little package.
@Hax it is the moderates who have a real problem
Originally Posted by :
@Hax it is the moderates who have a real problem
Okay, now you've just gone inane.@Hax it is the moderates who have a real problem
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Too late I think, we will never be able to treat the Islamic world equally because it isn't equal by our own standards and never will be,
Move over Tel Aviv, the hippest place in the Middle East will always be Beyrouth:Too late I think, we will never be able to treat the Islamic world equally because it isn't equal by our own standards and never will be,
Youtube Video
Dubai. The Gulf build more skyscrapers this decade than Western Europe.
The world is changing. It is changing faster than at any time before.
Where did Frag say anything about armed conflict or genocide? 
It is quite valid to believe that until Muslim society aligns itself with modern norms, such efforts, while valiant, are ineffectual. Even this feel good story speaks to the problem. In 2010, some Muslim clerics have declared that, yes, in fact, conducting Holy War based on a 14th century fatwa is not appropriate. The fact that they even feel the need to make such a statement highlights the backwards nature of the Islamic world.
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
It is quite valid to believe that until Muslim society aligns itself with modern norms, such efforts, while valiant, are ineffectual. Even this feel good story speaks to the problem. In 2010, some Muslim clerics have declared that, yes, in fact, conducting Holy War based on a 14th century fatwa is not appropriate. The fact that they even feel the need to make such a statement highlights the backwards nature of the Islamic world.
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
Originally Posted by :
The fact that they even feel the need to make such a statement highlights the backwards nature of the Islamic world.
For the love of God, if they hadn't said it, you would be all "Look at those horrible Muslims! They won't even stand up against other Muslims killing people. They are evil barbarians!". I don't think they can ever do anything right, eh? The fact that they even feel the need to make such a statement highlights the backwards nature of the Islamic world.
Originally Posted by :
I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
Yes, enjoy your talks with Muslims. Wait no, talking is inconvenient, we'd better shoot them all. Y'know, just to be safe.I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
Originally Posted by Hax:
For the love of God, if they hadn't said it, you would be all "Look at those horrible Muslims! They won't even stand up against other Muslims killing people. They are evil barbarians!". I don't think they can ever do anything right, eh?
Calm down. I said that their effort was valiant but ineffectual. For the love of God, if they hadn't said it, you would be all "Look at those horrible Muslims! They won't even stand up against other Muslims killing people. They are evil barbarians!". I don't think they can ever do anything right, eh?
Originally Posted by :
Yes, enjoy your talks with Muslims. Wait no, talking is inconvenient, we'd better shoot them all. Y'know, just to be safe.
I don't quite understand the rush to hyperbole and genocidal imagery in this thread. I simply made the point that, instead of trying to change Islam, it may be beneficial to change people's perceptions about the role Islam should play in their lives. When people stop caring so much, they quickly lose the will to become militant. Secular society has had a moderating effect on Christianity and Islam in the Western World, and the more inroads it makes into the Middle East, the better.Yes, enjoy your talks with Muslims. Wait no, talking is inconvenient, we'd better shoot them all. Y'know, just to be safe.
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
Hahaha, you crack me up, man.Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
Originally Posted by Fragony:
I am not that simple. I am not an idiot.
Never meant to suggest that you were. Trying to minimize ambiguity so as to ease cognitive dissonance is a very rational strategy. I am certain that you are well aware that ambiguity can never be eliminated and that human interaction can not be reduced to a series of chess moves. Trying to impose a mental frame on any situation so as to render it "soluable" is a good response. If nothing is preferenced and relitavism becomes the only benchmark then you're likely to be paralyzed by your own indecision. It's a balancing act.I am not that simple. I am not an idiot.
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
I simply made the point that, instead of trying to change Islam, it may be beneficial to change people's perceptions about the role Islam should play in their lives. When people stop caring so much, they quickly lose the will to become militant. Secular society has had a moderating effect on Christianity and Islam in the Western World, and the more inroads it makes into the Middle East, the better.
I entirely agree with PJ's argument here.I simply made the point that, instead of trying to change Islam, it may be beneficial to change people's perceptions about the role Islam should play in their lives. When people stop caring so much, they quickly lose the will to become militant. Secular society has had a moderating effect on Christianity and Islam in the Western World, and the more inroads it makes into the Middle East, the better.
It also applies to religions as a whole (the recent trends towards fundamentalist re-Christianisation of the United States are not entirely unconnected with that country's increasing rejection of its commitments to human rights and liberal (in the correct sense) foundations).
It appears to apply particularly to religions with a strong adherence to an after-life, as well as proselytising impulses. This belief system allows people to do remarkably bestial things in the real world because they fancy their reward is to come, rather than having to live only in the cesspool they have created for others. It also promotes the idea of the entitled and the non-entitled (also rapidly characterised as "other" and then "not our kind of human").
A personal faith, lived humbly as an example to others without the demand they take notice, is a noble thing. Religious faith that seeks to influence or convert or marginalise is not conducive to modern societies of pluralism, exchange of ideas and freedom of thought.
Originally Posted by Hax:
I don't think they can ever do anything right, eh?
Sure they can, and they do. But people are a little bit too happy with it when they do, see? see? Power to the guy, but it doesn't impress me all that much.I don't think they can ever do anything right, eh?
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
It is quite valid to believe that until Muslim society aligns itself with modern norms, such efforts, while valiant, are ineffectual. Even this feel good story speaks to the problem. In 2010, some Muslim clerics have declared that, yes, in fact, conducting Holy War based on a 14th century fatwa is not appropriate. The fact that they even feel the need to make such a statement highlights the backwards nature of the Islamic world.
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
It is quite valid to believe that until Muslim society aligns itself with modern norms, such efforts, while valiant, are ineffectual. Even this feel good story speaks to the problem. In 2010, some Muslim clerics have declared that, yes, in fact, conducting Holy War based on a 14th century fatwa is not appropriate. The fact that they even feel the need to make such a statement highlights the backwards nature of the Islamic world.
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
I don't quite understand the rush to hyperbole and genocidal imagery in this thread. I simply made the point that, instead of trying to change Islam, it may be beneficial to change people's perceptions about the role Islam should play in their lives. When people stop caring so much, they quickly lose the will to become militant. Secular society has had a moderating effect on Christianity and Islam in the Western World, and the more inroads it makes into the Middle East, the better.
I don't quite understand the rush to hyperbole and genocidal imagery in this thread. I simply made the point that, instead of trying to change Islam, it may be beneficial to change people's perceptions about the role Islam should play in their lives. When people stop caring so much, they quickly lose the will to become militant. Secular society has had a moderating effect on Christianity and Islam in the Western World, and the more inroads it makes into the Middle East, the better.
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost:
I entirely agree with PJ's argument here.
It also applies to religions as a whole (the recent trends towards fundamentalist re-Christianisation of the United States are not entirely unconnected with that country's increasing rejection of its commitments to human rights and liberal (in the correct sense) foundations).
It appears to apply particularly to religions with a strong adherence to an after-life, as well as proselytising impulses. This belief system allows people to do remarkably bestial things in the real world because they fancy their reward is to come, rather than having to live only in the cesspool they have created for others. It also promotes the idea of the entitled and the non-entitled (also rapidly characterised as "other" and then "not our kind of human").
Are we forgetting the horific excesses which secular and "scientific" maxims have permitted in the last couple of centuries? To name but the most vicious and bleak: Social Darwinism, and the political movements it engendered (I hate to constantly evidence Godwin's law so I'll leave it at that).I entirely agree with PJ's argument here.
It also applies to religions as a whole (the recent trends towards fundamentalist re-Christianisation of the United States are not entirely unconnected with that country's increasing rejection of its commitments to human rights and liberal (in the correct sense) foundations).
It appears to apply particularly to religions with a strong adherence to an after-life, as well as proselytising impulses. This belief system allows people to do remarkably bestial things in the real world because they fancy their reward is to come, rather than having to live only in the cesspool they have created for others. It also promotes the idea of the entitled and the non-entitled (also rapidly characterised as "other" and then "not our kind of human").
Religions are not the core of the problem, but they can be used as an excuse - as any ideology can. It is extremism which causes problems to only ever be resolved through bloodshed.
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost:
A personal faith, lived humbly as an example to others without the demand they take notice -or follow the example, is a noble thing..
Even here though, the concept of faith as a private understanding between the individual and their "god"/religion requires a degree of individualist/humanist thought...A personal faith, lived humbly as an example to others without the demand they take notice -or follow the example, is a noble thing..
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
It is quite valid to believe that until Muslim society aligns itself with modern norms, such efforts, while valiant, are ineffectual. Even this feel good story speaks to the problem. In 2010, some Muslim clerics have declared that, yes, in fact, conducting Holy War based on a 14th century fatwa is not appropriate. The fact that they even feel the need to make such a statement highlights the backwards nature of the Islamic world.
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
I couldn't agree more. It is quite valid to believe that until Muslim society aligns itself with modern norms, such efforts, while valiant, are ineffectual. Even this feel good story speaks to the problem. In 2010, some Muslim clerics have declared that, yes, in fact, conducting Holy War based on a 14th century fatwa is not appropriate. The fact that they even feel the need to make such a statement highlights the backwards nature of the Islamic world.
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah:
Hahaha, you crack me up, man.
The obvious question that arises from such a statement is: Are you laughing with me or at me? Hahaha, you crack me up, man.
Originally Posted by :
I couldn't agree more.
I'm so confused as to who you are... I couldn't agree more.
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
It is quite valid to believe that until Muslim society aligns itself with modern norms, such efforts, while valiant, are ineffectual. Even this feel good story speaks to the problem. In 2010, some Muslim clerics have declared that, yes, in fact, conducting Holy War based on a 14th century fatwa is not appropriate. The fact that they even feel the need to make such a statement highlights the backwards nature of the Islamic world.
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
I couldn't agree more. It is quite valid to believe that until Muslim society aligns itself with modern norms, such efforts, while valiant, are ineffectual. Even this feel good story speaks to the problem. In 2010, some Muslim clerics have declared that, yes, in fact, conducting Holy War based on a 14th century fatwa is not appropriate. The fact that they even feel the need to make such a statement highlights the backwards nature of the Islamic world.
Many have postulated that Islam needs to go through a reformation. I say forget Islam completely, the answer is secularization. When people stop caring about Islam so much, progress ensues.
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat:
I couldn't agree more.
I couldn't agree more.
Originally Posted by PJ:
I'm so confused as to who you are...
I'm so confused as to who you are...
Originally Posted by SFTS??:
I couldn't agree more.
OK, I think the best way to maintain everybody's sanity is to ban both Louis and SFTS .... Yay or Nay?I couldn't agree more.
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane:
OK, I think the best way to maintain everybody's sanity is to ban both Louis and SFTS .... Yay or Nay?
We will become more powerful than you could ever imagineOK, I think the best way to maintain everybody's sanity is to ban both Louis and SFTS .... Yay or Nay?
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