Belgium to ban the Burka

[Myrddraal]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8597950.stm

What do you think? I haven't heard much about the motivations behind this ban, but I have heard that the reason given is to prevent terrorism.

Necessary compromise of freedoms to save lives, or bigotry?

[Fragony]

There is no need to ban the burka current laws are fine, a burka already is illegal since you aren't allowed to cover up your face in public.

[Hax]

What do you think? I haven't heard much about the motivations behind this ban, but I have heard that the reason given is to prevent terrorism.

I think I agree with Fragony here. There's no need to specifically ban burqas. What should be banned is the complete masking of your face.

[Megas Methuselah]

I guess Belgium simply doesn't have the balls to handle multiculturalism.

[Centurion1]

i hate burkas for what they represent and they just bother me. that being said this is a ridiculous withdrawal of free expression.

You Europeans all talk about how Americans are right wing loons and we stifle all expression, this would never pass here.

[Megas Methuselah]

...this would never pass here.

Really?

[Centurion1]

Really?

yah really.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Should balaclavas be made illegal? Even in cold winter?

On the other hand, if you're face is completely covered, law enforcement might have their suspicions aroused.

What does our resident Belgian lawyer say?

[InsaneApache]

If covering your face is illegal, I'm off to ring plod to dob in the mods here.

[Fragony]

i hate burkas for what they represent and they just bother me. that being said this is a ridiculous withdrawal of free expression.

You Europeans all talk about how Americans are right wing loons and we stifle all expression, this would never pass here.

There is the security argument and it's valid, especially in Brussels. But this is all symbolism, police isn't in control in these area's. Police-vests don't stop AK47 rounds, they can do zip.

[Husar]

There is the security argument and it's valid, especially in Brussels. But this is all symbolism, police isn't in control in these area's. Police-vests don't stop AK47 rounds, they can do zip.

That's probably because the police isn't the army and your usual drug addict or small time criminal doesn't bear AK 47s.
I'm sure they're capable of stopping a terrorist, after all their handguns can kill, too.

About the ban, hmm, well, I don't wear one so I guess it wouldn't affect me, still seems a bit superfluous to me, why do they have to ban things left and right nowadays?

[Fragony]

That's probably because the police isn't the army and your usual drug addict or small time criminal doesn't bear AK 47s.

They do in the Belgium no-go zones

[tibilicus]

Don't a lot of Belgium towns ban the Burka at the moment anyway?

I don't agree with it but if a majority of Belgium's object to the Burka then ultimately they should decide whether it can or can not be worn. Yes, democracy isn't always fair but it's the way it works.

[al Roumi]

I had a massive discussion with a "real life" (Muslim) friend about this yesterday. My conclusions exiting the discussion are this law sounds rather draconian and ignorant to say the least, but is particularily pointless (especially if Belgium has any hope of integrating it's immigrants), targetting a symptom rather than a cause.

[Myrddraal]

Well I agree with the general sentiment here. I had a rather heated debate about it with my family (half of which is Belgian). The argument I got from them went something along the lines of: terrorists use Burkas to hide bombs and escape from the scenes of their crimes, sure it's a limitation of freedoms, but if it saves one life it's worth it. Using the same logic, we should ban rucksacks, because they are used by terrorists to carry bombs. In fact, I reckon banning rucksacks on pulbic transport would be much more effective than banning burkas. But that wouldn't be acceptable now would it, because banning rucksacks would be an inconvenience to your average white citizen. It's ok to 'sacrifice freedoms for safety' if it's only inconvenient for brown people, as soon as it's inconvenient for everyone, it becomes a ridiculous suggestion.

[The Celtic Viking]

Let's not play pretend here: many women are being forced to wear these hideous political statements of hate and oppression against their will. Combating that is in my opinion more important than protecting the right of others to wear clothes that legitimises the rape of a woman. (As well as, I might add, the subsequent stoning of the raped woman, for having had sex outside of marriage - all in the name of the "religion of peace", of course.)

So since I see no better way to combat this, I'm in agreement with the ban. The burka has no place in a civilized society anyway.

[Strike For The South]

A complete and utter violation of rights.

Freedom from

The pond

Freedom to

[Ja'chyra]

A draconian law to ban a draconian law, two wrongs..............

And what????? You can't have your face covered in Belgium? What about the ugly people

[Strike For The South]

A draconian law to ban a draconian law, two wrongs..............

And what????? You can't have your face covered in Belgium? What about the ugly people

That's what all that beer is for

[Louis VI the Fat]

What does our resident Belgian lawyer say?

He barely dares set foot in the Backroom, what with all you childish Belgophobes forever poking fun at this cute little country that means so well.




Belgium being a French mini-me, it follows politically in the footsteps of its massive southern neighbour. For the past six months, starting with Sarkozy's adress that the burqa has no place in a free society, and followed by a great national debate on national identity, a renewed political effort has been made in France to ban the burqa from public life. However, this week, the Council of State, (the top legal body) issued an advisory opinion to the government, stating that a complete ban of the burqa has, in fact, no solid legal basis and could face a succesful challenge in the courts. This leaves the government, which wishes to push for a ban, with a problem.


Blissfully oblivious of that legal inquiry, directly the day after, Belgium voted to ban the burqa in Belgium. They shall now no doubt proceed to start a legal inquiry of their own into the legal aspects of the ban. Doing the whole thing nicely backwards and, with any luck, sometime in 2011 reaching the conclusion that a complete ban of the burqa has, in fact, no solid legal basis and could face a succesful challenge in the courts, thereby providing us with the Belgian joke of the decade.

[Myrddraal]

thereby providing us with the Belgian joke of the decade.

^

What so the lack of government wasn't enough?

[KukriKhan]

They should go the other way: "burquas may be worn, but may extend to a point no lower than 3 inches above the center of the knee." Policemen issued 6-inch rulers to insure compliance.

[Peasant Phill]

Apparently I'm the first Belgian in this thread.

Firstly, this is the first I heard of this. But apparently it isn't voted on just yet. It still needs to go through parliament.

Secondly, I'm a bit annoyed with the 'les petits belges'-attitude in Luis' post. I'm sure France is just perfect.

Thirdly, I'm uncertain how I should feel about this proposition. It can both alienate as integrate the Muslim minority in the Belgian society. Let's be honest, some of the Belgian muslims (and from most other parts in Europe) aren't willing to integrate. This week there was a sincere call for a 'sharia for Belgium' from third generation muslim Belgians. What do you make of that?
I doubt a ban on the Burka will make the Belgian society any better or worse but at least it's a signal.

[Centurion1]

Thirdly, I'm uncertain how I should feel about this proposition. It can both alienate as integrate the Muslim minority in the Belgian society. Let's be honest, some of the Belgian muslims (and from most other parts in Europe) aren't willing to integrate. This week there was a sincere call for a 'sharia for Belgium' from third generation muslim Belgians. What do you make of that?
I doubt a ban on the Burka will make the Belgian society any better or worse but at least it's a signal.

i hate people who refuse to integrate or at least accept the rules of their host nation. i respect other cultures and everything but people need to realize when they immigrate it is a allowance not a right. no double standards everyone should be treated the same. And im sorry but many of these muslim immigrants to Europe are some of the worst about this sort of thing

[Beskar]

There is no need to ban the burka current laws are fine, a burka already is illegal since you aren't allowed to cover up your face in public.

I share Fragony's post 100%. You give guidelines on dress based on things like "you aren't allowed to cover up your face in public", not "ban burka!".

There is fundamental difference between the two, even if the first one means that Burka's are basically banned.

[Fragony]

There is fundamental difference between the two, even if the first one means that Burka's are basically banned.

wow. Come over to the dark side.

[Beskar]

i hate people who refuse to integrate or at least accept the rules of their host nation. i respect other cultures and everything but people need to realize when they immigrate it is a allowance not a right. no double standards everyone should be treated the same. And im sorry but many of these muslim immigrants to Europe are some of the worst about this sort of thing

I believe we should have an open society. You can come here, you can show us your recipes, we can show you yours. We can talk and discuss about the history and all sorts of manner of things. However, in such a society, there are fundamental rights and guidelines, and coming here, you have to ascribe and live by them.

wow. Come over to the dark side.

Not really the darkside, it is just practical and aspects of security not to have your faces covered while at the bank, airport, shops and other areas. The fundamental difference is "You cannot wear them for those reasons" not because of any sort of religious dresscode. As you said yourself in another area, you are not a big fan of religion, same here with me, I see religion as the "optional extra" so if you don't want to drink alcohol because it is against your religion, I have no problems at all. If you want to wear a little cross necklace in a suitiable place, I have no problems with that. If you want to blow up a building and you are not a licenced demolition contractor following the health and safety codes, I do have a problem with that.

I know many self-confessed Muslims, some could arguably be mullah-lite, I have absolutely no problems with them, unless they obviously cross that line which everyone has to abide to, and whenever they are Muslims, Christian, crazy communist, they have to face the consequences of crossing that line. But as in the spirit of the human rights system "Innocent, unless proven otherwise".

The dark-side as you would put it, is discrimination against them simply for being Muslim and other forms of prejudice and discrimination.

[rory_20_uk]

Sounds like the law is political point scoring more than anything else.

At my school doc martin boots were banned as they did not go well with dresses. Of course, the rule could have been to ban the wearing of dresses with doc martins, but that wouldn't have achieved the desired effect.

[Peasant Phill]

Again it is far from a law, just a proposal that's gotten onto the agenda of the Parliament. And as there are no important names linked to this proposal, nobody can really score with it.

[Brenus]

Ban the Burka.
Alienation of women: It is not because you had happy slaves that slavery was a good institution and had to be kept…

The people who oblige or voluntarily wear these sort of portable jails/clothes are doing it in order to be segregated of the society, not to be integrated.

By the way, do you know that you can’t see properly with this? My sister had one when working in Pakistan, you can’t see your feet, and when going down, stairs or slope, you have to manoeuvre the hood…
So even in term of health and safety it should be banned.

By definition, an integrated foreigner can’t be distinguished from a crowd. Me, nobody can tell I am French in UK until I open my mouth.
More difficult of none Europeans I know, but to add self-inflicted segregation to potential discrimination would not improve the problem…

“You give guidelines on dress based on things like "you aren't allowed to cover up your face in public", not "ban burka!"
No. That gives a clear message to the ones who want to enslave theirs daughters, sister and mothers…

“A complete and utter violation of rights”: To wear a burka? Yeap.
If a Religion would impose this to animals, we will all up to arms…
But hey, it is cultural. By the way, nope: It is a political statement. The male have to wear the afghan clothing… That is their right…
However, in order to save Muslim baby girls and to give them the right to be free to follow or not the religion of their parents (and to have a normal bones development), burn the burka!!!