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Thread: Economic warfare?

  1. #1

    Default Economic warfare?

    Is economic warfare possible with this mod? In RTW I enjoyed using assassins and spies to send cities into revolt (usually when playing as an underdog barbarian faction against the Romans) which would hurt their finances and force them to spend time and money recapturing the lost cities.

    However, playing as Epeiros I've taken Macedon's three mainland cities (and Greece's) but Macedon is still sending freshly recruited groups of soldiers from their island. Going by the early-game experience Macedon should be well in the red, but as far as I can tell the AI gets financial help from the mod.

    I was playing on VH campaign/M battle. Does changing the campaign setting affect how much money the AI gets?

  2. #2
    Parthian Cataphract #03452 Member Zradha Pahlavan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    I've seen such a strategy work only once, and that was against the Saka, who live on the already economically useless steppe. And they eventually got themselves out of it.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Economic warfare is possible, but know that the AI gets financial support on each difficulty level. If you want to, you can damage barracks that are churning out argyraspidai or elephantes indikoi. For the cost of one assassin you can constantly damage such barracks and therebye prevent the recruiment of specific elite units. Expect the AI to repair these barracks. Triggering revolts is equally possible, but imo harder than in vanilla. I've only managed to do so in border regions.
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  4. #4
    Member Member Badass Buddha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Economic warfare is possible, but IMHO you're better off just killing your enemy militarily, since all of the most effective methods of economic warfare (blockading, scorched earthing, etc) are more trouble and the amount needed per turn to maintain the units doing the damage is costing you more than it is costing them in damages.

  5. #5
    Varangarchos ton Romaioktonon Member Hannibal Khan the Great's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    EB's large AI economic bonuses (IIRC 60000 mnai per turn) really keep economic warfare unfeasible. Best to just wear them out in battle, like a true man!
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  6. #6
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    yeah, and when you open the EBBS sctipt, you'll see why economic warfare is useless... for every your territory advantage against them, they'll got more money.

    Face that, best way to effectively cut their cities' supply line was to besiege them with halfstack led by captain...

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  7. #7
    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    The rationale behind this is: the AI is so inept at most of its tasks, that there's no sense in making economic warfare possible for the player. You have the brains, and the AI has money.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Very Super Market View Post
    The rationale behind this is: the AI is so inept at most of its tasks, that there's no sense in making economic warfare possible for the player. You have the brains, and the AI has money.
    According to Ray Kurzweil, soon enough we are going to be the ones needing the money! and the AI will have the brains!!!
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by EddyP View Post
    I was playing on VH campaign/M battle. Does changing the campaign setting affect how much money the AI gets?
    Yes, it does. On VH campaign the AI gets absolutely insane amounts of bonus money, economic warfare is utterly pointless on that level.

    On M campaign, you can't send them into the red because they get a bonus every time they go below 5,000 mnai, but you can keep them relatively poor.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Apologies for bringing up an old thread, but is there any way I might modify the code to decrease the bonus money to the AI if settlements/ports are being besieged/blockaded? I'd really love to be able to wage economic warfare myself, and it is really my only major wish with respect to the game (growl as I might at occasional CTDs).

    I have no knowledge of coding at all, but it occurs to me that there must be a condition that the engine would recognize (if_blockade or something), that could be introduced into the money script to stick a negative modifier on bonus cash during sieges and blockades. Please let me know.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    i hope this gets responses!!! i've said this so much but the lack of meaningful economic damage to the enemy REALLY ruins the game on many levels. The money script is very fair to smaller factions, but play any eastern faction and you will literally face NEVER.ENDING. stacks of AS or PT spam that legitamately, truly, honestly, ruin the game. It's why i stay on the western side of the map, the economic advantages are fair to these small nations but absolutely stupid and heinous against large established empires with multiple cities to send never ending enemies from

  12. #12

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by fomalhaut View Post
    i hope this gets responses!!! i've said this so much but the lack of meaningful economic damage to the enemy REALLY ruins the game on many levels. The money script is very fair to smaller factions, but play any eastern faction and you will literally face NEVER.ENDING. stacks of AS or PT spam that legitamately, truly, honestly, ruin the game. It's why i stay on the western side of the map, the economic advantages are fair to these small nations but absolutely stupid and heinous against large established empires with multiple cities to send never ending enemies from

    Yeah, it's pretty bad even in the West...the Qart-Hadastim are very small in my Romani campaign, but the money they get from the script means that taking huge commercial centers, like Qart-Hadast itself, have no real effect.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    herm taking kart hadast should be made dificult but with this ai ...

    the biggest problem imho is that the ai doesn´t loose population when recruiting wich ofc once again is due to the ai or else they would always have 400 or 600 of population per town they´re always recruiting :\ and that would mean no reforms

  14. #14
    ridiculously suspicious Member TheLastDays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    I agree... the AI should be forced to keep a strong garrisons in capital cities... I would love to see some heavy siege battles on Kart Hadast, Alexandria, Seleukeia, etc...
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by fomalhaut View Post
    i hope this gets responses!!! i've said this so much but the lack of meaningful economic damage to the enemy REALLY ruins the game on many levels. The money script is very fair to smaller factions, but play any eastern faction and you will literally face NEVER.ENDING. stacks of AS or PT spam that legitamately, truly, honestly, ruin the game. It's why i stay on the western side of the map, the economic advantages are fair to these small nations but absolutely stupid and heinous against large established empires with multiple cities to send never ending enemies from
    I disagree - EB is well balanced as it is. Why? Because the AI is stupid.

    The AI doesn't conduct economic warfare very effectively itself, nor does the AI defend itself well against economic warfare. The AI doesn't blockade enemy ports with its ships anywhere near as often as a human player would do in the same situation. AI ships basically just sail aimlessly around most of the time, often they don't even attack enemy ships when they have a numerical advantage. And the AI won't build ships as a means of breaking a blockade on one of its own ports, it just ignores the blockade.

    Since the AI is so stupid, the money script is necessary to counter economic blockade by the player, otherwise the game would be too easy as a human player could break AI economies by blockading their ports, while the AI would not do the same to him.

  16. #16
    Member Member Trax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    I'll rather have a easy game that makes sense than a challenging game that makes no sense.
    The RTW AI is so bad that the game is frustrating and infuriating anyway.

    An AI that is too poor to offer a challenge is frustrating but so is an AI that stubbornly sends a stack after stack against you EVERY TURN.

    Both will lead to a ragequit sooner or later.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    I'll rather have a easy game that makes sense than a challenging game that makes no sense.
    The RTW AI is so bad that the game is frustrating and infuriating anyway.

    An AI that is too poor to offer a challenge is frustrating but so is an AI that stubbornly sends a stack after stack against you EVERY TURN.

    Both will lead to a ragequit sooner or later.
    My thoughts exactly.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    the AI is damn stupid, trust me i know why they get the money scripts. They will not disband their armies or large fleets, they will not build basic infrastructure, trust me man i really know.

    but that doesn't make fighting spam stacks fun at all. because you know in your head that it is completely artificial, these aren't really the armies of your enemy but rather citizens pulled from nowhere hired with fake money solely there to piss you off.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    herm the team could have always have made building free for the ai and cap it´s negative cash at 0 so they never go on the red and eventually they would start having a profit thanks to free buildings wich generate cash

    ofc i´m not modder so i don´t know if they tryed it or if it had worked

  20. #20

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    there's so much complex math going on i'm sure, but i just feel the script exponentially increases the need for the script; the AI hires Silver Shields (since it likes to spam elites) with the new money it has received, now the AI has a new awesome unit from hell, but also another 1,000 upkeep. this brings them closer to the give_money point again, which then gives them more money to hire more Silver Shields.

    Now when it may have taken two turns to get the X amount in the red to hire more soldiers, the higher upkeep causes them to enter the red every turn, and now receive the money every single turn, causing essentially an endless amount of Silver Shields which i think any player who has played AS can attest to as a normal sight.

    This is why destroying their MIC's is the ONLY way to stop elite spam for any army, which i think is kind of sucky. Breaks the well crafted immersion when elites are the cannon fodder (Pedites Extraodinarii...)

  21. #21

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Which is why I'm reeeeally looking forward to EB2 :) I have high hope for unit pools putting an end to the elite spam :)

  22. #22

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    In my latest campaign with Casse, I used spies extensively so that roman conquered cities in 'Barbarorum' were harder to pacify.Remember spies get levels too.When one gets the 'guild' trait he becomes very powerful in that city and causes BIG problems.I already had two roman cities in Gaul, revolting in favor of Aedui because of my activity :-)

    In early stages of the war against Sweboz I used assasins to damage their level 4 MIC each round.That way the sweboz couldnt recruit top units.

    Also maybe the AI gets bonuses but he certainly comes to a point where he can not deal with the huge army upkeep he creates.I think these are moments that they AI freezes.So it is beneficial to blockade ports or besiege towns just just for the economical damage.In fact most of the times, I do not blockade ports deliberately so as the AI keeps fighting on. ;-)

    All in all, economic warfare is there and in a balanced conflict can certainly give you a valuable advantage.
    Last edited by Ksifos; 04-26-2011 at 19:28.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksifos View Post
    In my latest campaign with Casse, I used spies extensively so that roman conquered cities in 'Barbarorum' were harder to pacify.Remember spies get levels too.When one gets the 'guild' trait he becomes very powerful in that city and causes BIG problems.I already had two roman cities in Gaul, revolting in favor of Aedui because of my activity :-)

    In early stages of the war against Sweboz I used assasins to damage their level 4 MIC each round.That way the sweboz couldnt recruit top units.

    Also maybe the AI gets bonuses but he certainly comes to a point where he can not deal with the huge army upkeep he creates.I think these are moments that they AI freezes.So it is beneficial to blockade ports or besiege towns just just for the economical damage.In fact most of the times, I do not blockade ports deliberately so as the AI keeps fighting on. ;-)

    All in all, economic warfare is there and in a balanced conflict can certainly give you a valuable advantage.
    That's true; it is possible to damage MICs to shut down recruitment for that turn. But, as formalhaut astutely observed, the same crippling upkeep activates the script, allowing the AI to take on more upkeep burdens. Blockading ports certainly does do damage; but the money script makes it irrelevant. In fact, blockading a port could theoretically generate a windfall for the blockaded faction by causing their treasury to fall below zero, triggering a massive cash bonus.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    not to mention, damaging their MIC every.turn. is truly one of the most boring things i have ever, ever, i repeat EVER done in a video game. I couldn't conquer antioch, but antioch was a huge producer of elite spam so i just... ever turn... ugh... the nightmares

  25. #25

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Just an idea to help with the elite spam, and perhaps the economy. Wouldn't it be possible to go into the edu and just change the recruitment times for elite units to something like 2 or 3 turns? This could limit the amount that the AI can recruit and send, and may also encourage them to recruit other units that train faster. Yes, it would slow it down for the player too, but all elite armies shouldn't be the standard anyways.

    At the very least it could slow down the elite stacks. Furthermore, with fewer elites the upkeep costs could be lessened and in some ways cause them to not go into the red as often and trigger the script into adding more money.

    Yes, I know it's kind of a pain in the butt to do, but it might help.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    maybe it would take many many months to gather such a large number of veterans

  27. #27

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    That's what I was thinking, and it could prevent or at least delay some of the elite stack spam. It probably wouldn't prevent them from spamming lesser units, but those are easier to handle, but still quite annoying.

    I think I'll do some tweaking and testing on this to see if the idea actually works at all. Fewer elites could also improve the AI economy and even make economic warfare a bit more viable. (Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread)

  28. #28

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Antioch, I often conquer it when the Seleukid army is out of house and after that it "catches" all roaming armies to be easily dispatched by joint forces :D

    maybe the increace of train time would help the Elite Spam, tho I'm not sure if it would increace the amount of Pezhetairoi etc. with the destruction of the high level MICs I often see Hords of panda pikemen and the like tho it also could be due to Pezhetairoi beeing trained at the same place.
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  29. #29

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    Well it pays to combine espionage along with diplomacy, to prevent AI gangbanging.Making some good alliances before (if aggressor) or in the beginning of a conflict, seems to work well.Allied AI will (or can be provoked) declare war and create one more front for the enemy AI to fight.

    But many times (especially when I am a BIG and STRONG nation) I am too lazy to deal with those boring aspects of the game and concentrate on battles:-P

    Also I 've never see pure elite stacks, rather than mixtures with a 20~30% percentage being elite units.I guess you are refering to such when mentioning "elite spam".

  30. #30

    Default Re: Economic warfare?

    i doubt the ai can read into the waiting time to recruit so it would mainly mean the ai would be alot slower recruiting armies

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