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This is a human being we're talking about, treated like an unwanted puppy. This is about as
cold as it can get, and tells us a lot of the dark side of our western society. And for my fellow euro's; don't make the mistake of thinking "oh those silly yanks", this could just as easily happen in London, Paris or Oslo.
What I'd like to know though, can this woman face punishment for this? Would this count as child abuse or something similar under US law?
This is a human being we're talking about, treated like an unwanted puppy. This is about as
cold as it can get, and tells us a lot of the dark side of our western society. And for my fellow euro's; don't make the mistake of thinking "oh those silly yanks", this could just as easily happen in London, Paris or Oslo.What I'd like to know though, can this woman face punishment for this? Would this count as child abuse or something similar under US law?
Well I certainly hope that the Russians are able to push US authorities to prosecute her! Who in the right mind returns an orphan child, hopefully the kid will get some proper foster parents with the coverage this will get now but there has to be a charge to lay against the foster mother.
No, no, no. You're supposed to say something about how this case represents typical American consumerism. Something like this:
"Russia media has reacted with horror to the case and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov called for all adoptions of the country's children by US citizens to be frozen."
But no; this is odd. I've known people who adopted children from Russia before. They were married and had to visit Russia at least once to see the authorities, the child, and pay whatever wergeld was required. The woman could have seen how the boy acted and made up her own mind instead of trusting the orphanage. This isn't child abuse, it's just...a horrible situation.
"Russia media has reacted with horror to the case and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov called for all adoptions of the country's children by US citizens to be frozen."
But no; this is odd. I've known people who adopted children from Russia before. They were married and had to visit Russia at least once to see the authorities, the child, and pay whatever wergeld was required. The woman could have seen how the boy acted and made up her own mind instead of trusting the orphanage. This isn't child abuse, it's just...a horrible situation.
Originally Posted by Vladimir:
This isn't child abuse, it's just...a horrible situation.
It isn't?This isn't child abuse, it's just...a horrible situation.
If her description of the boys behaviour is correct, then he's obviously suffering from some kind of phsycological disorder. PTSD would be a good guess. Just what do you think this situation will do to him? He has already suffered a trauma he can't deal with, what do you think this rejection could do with him?
If things didn't turn out the way she wanted to, then tough luck. She made her decisicion, now she has to deal with it. Life isn't always fair. People are "stuck" with children with downs syndrome, handicaps, etc etc. And the only thing they can do is live with it, or face jail.
It shouldn't be a difference that this woman adopted a child instead of giving birth to one.
It didn't make headlines when I sent my bride back to Moscow for "not meeting requirements". 
Sounds to me like a shady adoption agency didn't disclose some facts about the child, and did so for the sake of expediency, and now both sides know they are wrong. Too bad for the kid. This will be my last serious post in this thread, because there are so many jokes here I can only contain myself for about 45 more minutes.
edit: Drone has already started.....
edit: Drone has already started.....
The letter is a bit fuzzy, but it seems to say something about "violent, with psychopathic tendencies, mentally unstable, I fear for the safety of my family, etc". The title of the thread is "doesn't meet requirements of mother" but it's not like she sent him back because he got a A- in art class and she wanted an A+ kid.
This doesn't tell us anything about society, it just says something (not clear exactly what since we don't know all the details) about this woman in Tennessee.
This doesn't tell us anything about society, it just says something (not clear exactly what since we don't know all the details) about this woman in Tennessee.
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro:
The letter is a bit fuzzy, but it seems to say something about "violent, with psychopathic tendencies, mentally unstable, I fear for the safety of my family, etc".
Someone out there is playing the world smallest violin just for her.The letter is a bit fuzzy, but it seems to say something about "violent, with psychopathic tendencies, mentally unstable, I fear for the safety of my family, etc".
If a small kid is violent and unstable, then I would've thought humanity had reached a point where we didn't think of the kid as a spawn of Satan, but someone with a traumatic life in need of special care.
And kicking the kid out the door isn't giving him special care, sorry.
EDIT: What if she had given birth to this child? Would she be allowed to kill it because there obviously wouldn't be anyone to send it back to?
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Someone out there is playing the world smallest violin just for her.
If a small kid is violent and unstable, then I would've thought humanity had reached a point where we didn't think of the kid as a spawn of Satan, but someone with a traumatic life in need of special care.
And kicking the kid out the door isn't giving him special care, sorry.
EDIT: What if she had given birth to this child? Would she be allowed to kill it because there obviously wouldn't be anyone to send it back to?
"kill it"? How do you think kids end up in orphanages in the first place? Someone out there is playing the world smallest violin just for her.
If a small kid is violent and unstable, then I would've thought humanity had reached a point where we didn't think of the kid as a spawn of Satan, but someone with a traumatic life in need of special care.
And kicking the kid out the door isn't giving him special care, sorry.
EDIT: What if she had given birth to this child? Would she be allowed to kill it because there obviously wouldn't be anyone to send it back to?
How do you know that he's "had a traumatic life and needs special care"? It doesn't say that anywhere. Maybe this woman is a huge ***** and the kid is normal, maybe he's a psychopath and set fire to her cat, we don't know. I don't really get where you're coming from with this thread.
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro:
"kill it"? How do you think kids end up in orphanages in the first place?
In this case, it was because his mother was relieved of her custody by the state. Probably a drunk or a junkie."kill it"? How do you think kids end up in orphanages in the first place?
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro:
How do you know that he's "had a traumatic life and needs special care"? It doesn't say that anywhere. Maybe this woman is a huge ***** and the kid is normal, maybe he's a psychopath and set fire to her cat, we don't know. I don't really get where you're coming from with this thread.
.....So you still believe in spawns of satan, then? Some kids are just born evil, and doesn't deserve our care?How do you know that he's "had a traumatic life and needs special care"? It doesn't say that anywhere. Maybe this woman is a huge ***** and the kid is normal, maybe he's a psychopath and set fire to her cat, we don't know. I don't really get where you're coming from with this thread.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
EDIT: What if she had given birth to this child? Would she be allowed to kill it because there obviously wouldn't be anyone to send it back to?
You support abortion don't you? As far as I'm aware, the prevalent reason for abortions is that the mother doesn't want to care for the child. Or does the morality completely change if the mother kills her child before birth instead of after?EDIT: What if she had given birth to this child? Would she be allowed to kill it because there obviously wouldn't be anyone to send it back to?
And really, I think both the orphanage and adopter screwed up here. But your hypothetical question is inane.
CR
It would be cool if kids came with warranties.
The incident is not isolated; the same article mentions similar case(s) occurring -- to general justified indignation in Russia. OTOH it seems that whatever intermediaries there were should for the sake of the children adopt a more thorough screening process.
And the woman probably could have taken the much more humane road of seeking professional aid. Of course that may be rather more difficult in the USA, than it is over here -- I wouldn't know. (I do know from experience that it is a fairly straightforward matter to get professional aid in the Netherlands for mental ills of all sorts, if you can shelve your pride and admit that something is wrong that is.)
And the woman probably could have taken the much more humane road of seeking professional aid. Of course that may be rather more difficult in the USA, than it is over here -- I wouldn't know. (I do know from experience that it is a fairly straightforward matter to get professional aid in the Netherlands for mental ills of all sorts, if you can shelve your pride and admit that something is wrong that is.)
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
In this case, it was because his mother was relieved of her custody by the state. Probably a drunk or a junkie.
Ok, but of a non sequitar but that seems probable.In this case, it was because his mother was relieved of her custody by the state. Probably a drunk or a junkie.
Originally Posted by :
.....So you still believe in spawns of satan, then? Some kids are just born evil, and doesn't deserve our care?
Psychopathy has a genetic component yes, though they don't diagnose kids. Other disorders do as well. Maybe she raises him and he shoots up his high school like one of those columbine kids. I think "not a psychopath, etc" is a perfectly acceptable requirement for the person you're adopting. There are other kids in orphanages right? Why should this kid be adopted over them?.....So you still believe in spawns of satan, then? Some kids are just born evil, and doesn't deserve our care?
You seem to be conflating "not mother teresa" with "heartless and cold"...
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro:
You seem to be conflating "not mother teresa" with "heartless and cold"...
Ooh, don't get started on that.You seem to be conflating "not mother teresa" with "heartless and cold"...
While it may not be child abuse to refuse an adopted child who is throwing knives at people, it isn't specified what he had actually done. The only thing we do know is that the mother decided the best course of action was to put him on an airplane back to Russia with a bag of treats and a little note. Regardless of psychopathy, that isn't the way to deal with your problems, be they children or cars made out of cardboard. In the event that the kid really was flipping out, then she avoided calling the authorities for free and decided to shell out the money for airline tickets instead. I am more for debating the woman's mental status than the boy's.
Not a chance of child abuse sticking as a charge.
Might get child endangerment/negligence, despite her obvious efforts at basic physical safety (person waiting on other end, etc.).
Very sad story.
Might get child endangerment/negligence, despite her obvious efforts at basic physical safety (person waiting on other end, etc.).
Very sad story.
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro:
Yes... Very probable...Originally Posted by HoreTore:
In this case, it was because his mother was relieved of her custody by the state. Probably a drunk or a junkie.
Ok, but of a non sequitar but that seems probable.In this case, it was because his mother was relieved of her custody by the state. Probably a drunk or a junkie.
Originally Posted by Link in OP:
[...]at the orphanage where the boy was left by his alcoholic birth mother[...]
[...]at the orphanage where the boy was left by his alcoholic birth mother[...]
Sounds to me like this woman wanted a pre-made perfect little boy without having to go to all the trouble of raising him herself, and when she didn't get a little angel she ditched him.
The kid was from Russia. He probably showed up drunk.
Everyone knows the cornerstone of customer service is a refund when the product does not live up to expectations. Wal-Mart would do it, and that is why there is no Russian Wal-Mart.
This kid sucks! I want my dollars back!
She should go to jail for sending the kid back alone on a plane. She could have just as easily dropped him at a Salvation Army drop box. Special kids are all the glam these days, especially if you need a tax shelter or are seeking office. Someone would have picked him up eventually, the crime is sending him back to Russia instead of dropping him in a dumpster in the US
This adoption agency was initially reported as cutting corners to get rid of Russian tard kids, but then all the people involved died of radiation poisoning. Sorry
The kid obviously freaked out the first time he realized toilet paper was so cheap it was almost free
Russia is for lovers. If you like retarded kids.
Can I get a baby that works, please?
Everyone knows the cornerstone of customer service is a refund when the product does not live up to expectations. Wal-Mart would do it, and that is why there is no Russian Wal-Mart.
This kid sucks! I want my dollars back!
She should go to jail for sending the kid back alone on a plane. She could have just as easily dropped him at a Salvation Army drop box. Special kids are all the glam these days, especially if you need a tax shelter or are seeking office. Someone would have picked him up eventually, the crime is sending him back to Russia instead of dropping him in a dumpster in the US
This adoption agency was initially reported as cutting corners to get rid of Russian tard kids, but then all the people involved died of radiation poisoning. Sorry
The kid obviously freaked out the first time he realized toilet paper was so cheap it was almost free
Russia is for lovers. If you like retarded kids.
Can I get a baby that works, please?
Let's heed earlier instincts and not go down the route of insults and national stereotyping, please.
Thank you kindly.
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit:
You support abortion don't you? As far as I'm aware, the prevalent reason for abortions is that the mother doesn't want to care for the child. Or does the morality completely change if the mother kills her child before birth instead of after?
And really, I think both the orphanage and adopter screwed up here. But your hypothetical question is inane.
CR
I know you already know my answer to that, so I don't really understand why you ask this....You support abortion don't you? As far as I'm aware, the prevalent reason for abortions is that the mother doesn't want to care for the child. Or does the morality completely change if the mother kills her child before birth instead of after?
And really, I think both the orphanage and adopter screwed up here. But your hypothetical question is inane.
CR
But if you want me to spell it out, fine; I don't count a fetus/lump of cells as a human, but once born, you can't kill it. Yes, I define human as a creature that is born, not "sperm says hello to egg". But I would have ABSOLUTELY no problem with a mother who realizes that she cannot take care of a child even though she didn't want an abortion(for whatever reason) and thus puts it up for adoption or works with the government to find the appropriate solution to her situation. And if the child needs extra care, then it's our responsibility to pay for it through taxes, because we respect human dignity and doesn't want to see other people suffer for something nature did to them.
The TWC thread is titled "US Mother Ships Adopted Boy, 7, Back to Russia", and from the main index, is visible as "US Mother Ships Adopted Boy". I had this image of American UFOs adopting a mascot.
Originally Posted by :
Everyone knows the cornerstone of customer service is a refund when the product does not live up to expectations. Wal-Mart would do it, and that is why there is no Russian Wal-Mart.
silly, kids are like a box of cereal you cant return it after you open it up no matter what the prize inside.Everyone knows the cornerstone of customer service is a refund when the product does not live up to expectations. Wal-Mart would do it, and that is why there is no Russian Wal-Mart.
Originally Posted by :
But if you want me to spell it out, fine; I don't count a fetus/lump of cells as a human, but once born, you can't kill it. Yes, I define human as a creature that is born, not "sperm says hello to egg". But I would have ABSOLUTELY no problem with a mother who realizes that she cannot take care of a child even though she didn't want an abortion(for whatever reason) and thus puts it up for adoption or works with the government to find the appropriate solution to her situation. And if the child needs extra care, then it's our responsibility to pay for it through taxes, because we respect human dignity and doesn't want to see other people suffer for something nature did to them.
lol i never understand that argument. Okay so as long as the baby isn't out all the way it's okay. But if you want me to spell it out, fine; I don't count a fetus/lump of cells as a human, but once born, you can't kill it. Yes, I define human as a creature that is born, not "sperm says hello to egg". But I would have ABSOLUTELY no problem with a mother who realizes that she cannot take care of a child even though she didn't want an abortion(for whatever reason) and thus puts it up for adoption or works with the government to find the appropriate solution to her situation. And if the child needs extra care, then it's our responsibility to pay for it through taxes, because we respect human dignity and doesn't want to see other people suffer for something nature did to them.
" What your baby is 7 months and kicking. If i gave you a sonogram he would be fully developed? ok thats fine well get rid of IT."
ridiculous. admit it you ARE killing a human being especially during late term abortions. A 7th month fetus could be born right there and then as premature and survive.
I wish there was somewhere I could have shipped my youngest son off to. What a horror he was, well into his teens.
Regulars know my stance on kids, camps and release dates.
horror he was, well into his teens. Regulars know my stance on kids, camps and release dates.
Mention kids, the thread turns to abortion. Mention the US, and it goes straight to Rep vs Dems. Mention spare change and we bask in the glow of economics.
Urrrgh.
Urrrgh.
Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
I wish there was somewhere I could have shipped my youngest son off to. What a fecking horror he was, well into his teens.
LOL, I was thinking the same thing about myself. I violated my warranty so many times sending me back to the Eastern Block would have been the easy way out. I'm surprised I didn't get put on a rocket ship and shot into the heart of the sun!I wish there was somewhere I could have shipped my youngest son off to. What a fecking horror he was, well into his teens.
Sending mentally ill, homocidal children back to their homelands after their adoptive parents deem them a threat to their health and well being makes me horny.
Originally Posted by Centurion1:
lol i never understand that argument. Okay so as long as the baby isn't out all the way it's okay.
" What your baby is 7 months and kicking. If i gave you a sonogram he would be fully developed? ok thats fine well get rid of IT."
ridiculous. admit it you ARE killing a human being especially during late term abortions. A 7th month fetus could be born right there and then as premature and survive.
I want abortions performed around the 12-16 weeks mark, when the fetus is basically a lump of cells. This is largely because of the mothers health.lol i never understand that argument. Okay so as long as the baby isn't out all the way it's okay.
" What your baby is 7 months and kicking. If i gave you a sonogram he would be fully developed? ok thats fine well get rid of IT."
ridiculous. admit it you ARE killing a human being especially during late term abortions. A 7th month fetus could be born right there and then as premature and survive.
But I do support late-term abortions as well, but for a different reason, as those are never performed "just because the mother doesn't want the child". It's always because of some extraordinary event, and because of that they are very rare.
EDIT: But I have no desire to discuss abortion further. This is my stance. We could discuss it for months, and it will remain unchanged, just as your stance will remain unchanged. There is no "abortion debate", as there is no other alternative but to agree to disagree.
Originally Posted by Centurion1:
silly, kids are like a box of cereal you cant return it after you open it up no matter what the prize inside.
Several Catholic priests would disagree with you on this one. silly, kids are like a box of cereal you cant return it after you open it up no matter what the prize inside.
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