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Thread: Polish president killed in a plane crash

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ibn-Khaldun's Avatar
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    Default Polish president killed in a plane crash

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/...ia-plane-crash

    Don't know what to add.
    My condolences to any Polish member in the Org.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    weird, the better half flew back from poland yesterday.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Over 80 people dead.

    Several important officials - at least 30 I respected a lot.

    Several political figures, though mostly politicians who would leave the stage in time of next 1-2 years.


    Looking at the list of the people who died... I disliked many of them, especially the president.
    Frankly I despised him and wished him a long, long life after retirement.


    It is a shocking event. For some time I will avoid writing anything about consequences of the tragedy and they are enormous
    Rarely elites of opposition parties - especially populist-nationalist Law and Justice are obliterated in a moment.


    National mourning will be started, announced by acting president, speaker of the Sejm (and a candidate for the president) Bronisław Komorowski.

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    A terrible tragedy, and coming on the eve of a step towards rapprochement between Poland and Russia over Katyn. There were also many senior members of the Polish establishment on that plane.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

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    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    A terrible tragedy, and coming on the eve of a step towards rapprochement between Poland and Russia over Katyn. There were also many senior members of the Polish establishment on that plane.
    The reapprochment has been started earlier. The celebrations on Wednesday play very important part.



    Actually I was going to start a thread here tomorow after (planned) today's event in Katyń would be over.

    Not anymore, it would be a bit too early after the disaster.

  6. #6
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Here is list of all people on plane.

    Pan Lech KACZYŃSKI President – Republic of Poland

    Pani Maria KACZYŃSKA President wife

    OFFICIAL DELEGATION

    1. Pan Ryszard KACZOROWSKI - former president of Poland in Exile
    2. Pan Krzysztof PUTRA - Deputy Speaker of the Sejm
    3. Pan Jerzy SZMAJDZIŃSKI - Deputy Speaker of the Sejm
    4. Pani Krystyna BOCHENEK - Deputy Speaker of the Senate
    5. Pan Jerzy BAHR - Polish Ambassador to the Russian Federation
    6. Pan Władysław STASIAK - Head of the Presidential Chancellery
    7. Pan Aleksander SZCZYGŁO - Head of National Security
    8.
    9. Pan Paweł WYPYCH - Secretary of State in the President's Chancellery
    10. Pan Mariusz HANDZLIK - Undersecretary of State in the Chancellery of the President
    11. Pan Andrzej KREMER - Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs
    12. Pan Stanisław KOMOROWSKI - Undersecretary of State, Ministry of Defense
    13. Pan Tomasz MERTA - Undersecretary of State in the Ministry of Culture
    14. Gen. Franciszek GĄGOR - - Chief of General Staff of Polish Army
    15. Pan Andrzej PRZEWOŹNIK - Secretary ROPWiM
    16. Pan Maciej PŁAŻYŃSKI - President of the Association "Polish Community"
    17. Pan Mariusz KAZANA - Director of the MFA Diplomatic Protocol

    PARLIAMENT REPRESENTATIVES

    1. Pan Leszek DEPTUŁA - Deputy to the Sejm
    2. Pan Grzegorz DOLNIAK - Deputy to the Sejm
    3. Pani Grażyna GĘSICKA - Deputy to the Sejm
    4. Pan Przemysław GOSIEWSKI - Deputy to the Sejm
    5. Pan Sebastian KARPINIUK - Deputy to the Sejm
    6. Pani Izabela JARUGA – NOWACKA - Deputy to the Sejm
    7. Pan Zbigniew WASSERMANN - Deputy to the Sejm
    8. Pani Aleksandra NATALLI – ŚWIAT - Deputy to the Sejm
    10. Pan Arkadiusz RYBICKI - Deputy to the Sejm
    11. Pani Jolanta SZYMANEK – DERESZ - Deputy to the Sejm
    12. Pan Wiesław WODA - Deputy to the Sejm
    13. Pan Edward WOJTAS - Deputy to the Sejm
    14. Pani Janina FETLIŃSKA - Senator RP
    15. Pan Stanisław ZAJĄC - Senator RP

    ACCOMPANYING PERSONS

    1. Pan Janusz KOCHANOWSKI - Ombudsman
    2. Pan Sławomir SKRZYPEK - President of the Polish National Bank
    3. Pan Janusz KURTYKA - President of the Institute of National Remembrance
    4. Pan Janusz KRUPSKI - Head of the Office for War Veterans and Repressed Persons

    REPRESENTATIVES Churches and Religious Affairs

    1. Ks. Bp. gen. dyw. Tadeusz PŁOSKI - Ordinary of the Polish Army
    2. Abp gen. bryg. Miron CHODAKOWSKI - Orthodox Ordinary Polish Army
    3. Ks. płk Adam PILCH - Protestant Chaplaincy Field
    4. Ks. ppłk Jan OSIŃSKI - Ordinariate of the Polish Army

    Katyn Families REPRESENTATIVES AND OTHER ASSOCIATIONS

    1. Pan Edward DUCHNOWSKI - Secretary General of Association of Siberian Deportees
    2. Ks. prałat Bronisław GOSTOMSKI
    3. Ks. Józef JONIEC Prezes Stowarzyszenia Parafiada
    4. Ks. Zdzisław KRÓL Kapelan Warszawskiej Rodziny Katyńskiej 1987-2007
    5. Ks. Andrzej KWAŚNIK Kapelan Federacji Rodzin Katyńskich
    6. Pan Tadeusz LUTOBORSKI
    7. Pani Bożena ŁOJEK Prezes Polskiej Fundacji Katyńskiej
    8. Pan Stefan MELAK Prezes Komitetu Katyńskiego
    9. Pan Stanisław MIKKE Wiceprzewodniczący ROPWiM
    10. Pani Bronisława ORAWIEC - LOFFLER
    11. Pani Katarzyna PISKORSKA
    12. Pan Andrzej SARIUSZ – SKĄPSKI Prezes Federacji Rodzin Katyńskich
    13. Pan Wojciech SEWERYN
    14. Pan Leszek SOLSKI
    15. Pani Teresa WALEWSKA – PRZYJAŁKOWSKA Fundacja „Golgota Wschodu”
    16. Pani Gabriela ZYCH
    17. Pani Ewa BĄKOWSKA wnuczka Gen. bryg. Mieczysława Smorawińskiego
    18. Pani Maria BOROWSKA
    19. Pan Bartosz BOROWSKI
    20. Pan Dariusz MALINOWSKI

    REPRESENTATIVES OF THE ARMED FORCES RP

    1. Gen. broni Bronisław KWIATKOWSKI - Operational Commander of the Polish Armed Forces
    2. Gen. broni pil. Andrzej BŁASIK - Polish Air Force Commander
    3. Gen. dyw. Tadeusz BUK - Commander of Land Forces of Poland
    4. Gen. dyw. Włodzimierz POTASIŃSKI - Polish Special Forces Commander
    5. Vice-admiral - Andrzej KARWETA - Commander of the Navy
    6. Gen. bryg. Kazimierz GILARSKI - Commander of the Training Centre


    The last part is especially shocking considering the place where it happened.
    So many commanders of the Armed Forces died.

    I wonder how was it possible that they all took part in the celebrations travelling in one airplane. No doubt the importance of the celebrations in Katyń played very large part, probably political pressure too. But time to speculate will come later.
    Last edited by cegorach; 04-10-2010 at 11:22.

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    132 people, all told. http://news.uk.msn.com/world/article...011&ocid=today

    Is it too soon for me to say I'm suspicious, given that the administration was pro-EU?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    132 people, all told. http://news.uk.msn.com/world/article...011&ocid=today

    Is it too soon for me to say I'm suspicious, given that the administration was pro-EU?
    Virtually all parties in Poland are pro-EU so I am not sure what you mean.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    the G/F half jokingly suggested it was a plot by the russians, seeing the list of dead I now half believe her!

    conspiracy theories can be fun as well as crazy.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Useless Member Member Fixiwee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Since I am actually Polish this bit of news caught my eye. I always condemned this man and his christian fundamentalistic political party but no one deserves to die like that. My condolences.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Yes, it is somewhat ironic that a lot of polish "officers" died in a plane crash in Russia on their way to a memorial for a lot of polish officers killed by Russians.

    Sorry about the loss though.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

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    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    the G/F half jokingly suggested it was a plot by the russians, seeing the list of dead I now half believe her!

    conspiracy theories can be fun as well as crazy.
    If anything it would be very clumsy. The main thing is that most of politicians were from the opposition while militarymen were immediatelly replaced according to the rules of succession.

    There are already comspiracy theories from right-wing nutcases who preach it was 'a coup' orchestarated by the ruling Civic Platform.

    The tragedy visrtually annihilated the leadership of the Law na Justice, weakened Democratic Left Alliance and removed several people from important positions who were nominated between 2005 and 2007 giving Civc Platform almost total political power in the country.

    See ? - here is much more 'realistic' conspiracy theory.

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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Though I also disagreed with the man's policies, it is such a great tragedy. It is quite sad that even the last acting president of the Polish First Republic in exile was killed in the accident. :(
    BLARGH!

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    Retired Senior Member Prince Cobra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    I am shocked. Really. My condolences!
    R.I.P. Tosa...


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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    My prayers for them and for their families. What a blow to the Polish government....
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ibn-Khaldun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Though this is not the best place to say this but after I heard this news I began to wonder what if US president would've crashed? Or Chinese, Russian etc?

  17. #17
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    The final number of deaths is 96 - 88 passengers and 8 crewmen.

    A week of national mourning was announced by the acting president Bronisław Komorowski.

    New presidential elections will be announed after that.
    Several MPs will have to be chosen as well, same with several officials.


    There are some legal questions because of the unprecedented size of the disaster, but nothing serious.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
    If anything it would be very clumsy. The main thing is that most of politicians were from the opposition while militarymen were immediatelly replaced according to the rules of succession.

    There are already comspiracy theories from right-wing nutcases who preach it was 'a coup' orchestarated by the ruling Civic Platform.

    The tragedy visrtually annihilated the leadership of the Law na Justice, weakened Democratic Left Alliance and removed several people from important positions who were nominated between 2005 and 2007 giving Civc Platform almost total political power in the country.

    See ? - here is much more 'realistic' conspiracy theory.
    the better half is not very political, merely laughing at the reflexive polish attitude to blame the russians (or the germans). :)
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    this is terrible, both politically and just sad.

    ill wait to discuss legal ramifications of course.

    so very sad.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Good grief. What a tragedy.


    Shame this shoud've happened on a plane 'back from Katyń'. What a cruel turn of events, very sad.

    A catastrophe for Poland. I'm speechless...

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    So many important people, why on a 25 year old Russian flying coffin?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    there's a lesson for everyone........
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    So many important people, why on a 25 year old Russian flying coffin?

    Because the public would complan that 'they are spending our taxes on needless luxuries'. No politician likes that these days and it costs something to buy such a large airplane purchasing which in times of economic crisis (as we know far less ssevere in Poland) will never be popular.


    Actually the type of the airplane or its age has little to do with the reasons of the accident. Pilot's error most likely combined with thick fog and less than modern shape of the airfield and here it goes.

    It was the fourth attempt to land which is extraordinary and unprecedented. According to regulations it should never happen, but ultimately it is pilot's decision and his resposibility.
    I have my speculations given desperate political situation of the presidential camp in Poland as well as some earlier incidents, but that can and will wait.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Agreed that the plane itself might not have been the most likely cause, but I'm still surprised that they'd risk so many important dignitaries in the same plane. Staggering it slightly would only be a minor inconvenience.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
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    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    President Medvedev announced the fact that Russia will join Poland in national mourning on 12th April.

    Only a year ago very few would have thought it could happen.

    Nice reversal.

    At least one good news from the tragedy and another proof how easy it was to improve relations between both countries - basically in one move made by PM Putin in Katyn on Wednesday and by Kremlin during earlier days (screening of Andrzej's Wajda 'Katyń' in Russian public TV).

    So little, but I thought I will never live to this day.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
    President Medvedev announced the fact that Russia will join Poland in national mourning on 12th April.

    Only a year ago very few would have thought it could happen.

    Nice reversal.

    At least one good news from the tragedy and another proof how easy it was to improve relations between both countries - basically in one move made by PM Putin in Katyn on Wednesday and by Kremlin during earlier days (screening of Andrzej's Wajda 'Katyń' in Russian public TV).

    So little, but I thought I will never live to this day.
    A few gestures, a willingness to face truths, an acceptance of mistakes, they go such a long way towards reconcilliation.
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Sorry goes a long way but it's often the hardest word to say
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Wow, cegorach's list was... shocking to read. My condolences.

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    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    A few gestures, a willingness to face truths, an acceptance of mistakes, they go such a long way towards reconcilliation.
    So true.

    Only a year ago it was: 'Poland started the II WW', 'Poland planned to invade the SU with germany and Japan', 'Poland murdered 60 thousand Soviet POWs in 1920' etc.

    And on 9th May 2010 Polish soldiers are invited to march just after the Russian ones while Polish president (now perhaps the PM) with a number of veterans (also from the Home Army - formerly called in Russia 'cutthroats, murderers and crypto-nazis') will seat in honoured place.

    Even Lukashenko of Belorus observing how the wind blows awarded Andrzej Wajda a day or two ago...

    Amazing.

    Frankly I am delighted with this fact.

    Normal rivalry wil be continued, just like between neighbours even if they are linguistic cousins, but that is just so plainly, simply, boringrily... normal.


    I wonder if recent moves (also excellent Putin's speech in Katyn) will result in something deeper in Russia itself.

    Second and final phase of de-stalinisation? What do you think?

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polish president killed in a plane crash

    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
    I wonder if recent moves (also excellent Putin's speech in Katyn) will result in something deeper in Russia itself.

    Second and final phase of de-stalinisation? What do you think?
    I'm not holding my breath.

    I'm pleased with the normalisation in Russian-Polish relations. Other than that:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    On 19 June the home affairs ministry in St Petersburg shut down the site www.hrono.info. The website had been Russia's largest online history resource, widely used by scholars in Russia and elsewhere as a unique source of biographical and historical material. Officials said they closed the site because it published extracts from Hitler's autobiography, Mein Kampf. Today, however, its founder, Vyacheslav Rumyantsev, said the closure had nothing to do with Hitler, adding that the text was widely available elsewhere and was only summarised on the site.


    Rumyantsev said the authorities may have pulled the plug after an article was posted on 16 June criticising St Petersburg's pro-Kremlin governor, Valentina Matviyenko. The article attacked Matviyenko's decision to cut an allowance given to survivors of the Nazi siege of Leningrad.


    The closure comes amid official attempts in Russia to rewrite some of the darkest aspects of its 20th-century history. School textbooks now portray Stalin not as a mass murderer but as a great, if flawed, national leader and an "efficient manager" who defeated the Nazis and industrialised a backward Soviet Union.


    In December, police in St Petersburg raided the human rights organisation Memorial, removing much of the material used by Figes in The Whisperers, his acclaimed book on family life under Stalin. It included interviews with gulag victims, photos and personal testimonies. Figes's Russian publisher later scrapped plans to publish the book in Russian.Today Figes said in an email the Kremlin had become "very active on the internet" on history, claiming that it even hired bloggers to pose as members of the public, their task being to disseminate a Kremlin-approved version of the past and to "rubbish historians like myself". Chandler – the translator of Life and Fate, Vasily Grossman's epic novel set during the battle for Stalingrad – said he was alarmed at the decision to shut the website. "It was Orwell who said in Nineteen Eighty-Four that whoever controls the past controls the future."


    On Russia's recent attempts to rewrite the second world war and stress the achievements of Stalinism, rather than political repression, he said: "I think it's bad history. I think it would have appalled Grossman more than anyone."
    Much of Soviet history is now taboo. Particularly sensitive for the Kremlin is the 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, under which Hitler and Stalin agreed to carve up Europe, with Moscow annexing the Baltics and two-thirds of Poland. The Kremlin also refuses to acknowledge Ukrainian claims that the Stalin-engineered famine of 1932-33 amounted to a genocide.


    This month Russia's delegation walked out of the Organisation for the Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) after it passed a resolution likening Stalinism with Nazism. The resolution called for 23 August, the day of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, to be a day of remembrance for victims of both Stalin and Hitler. Russia accused the OSCE of trying to "distort history with political goals". "This does not contribute to creating an atmosphere of trust and cooperation between member states of this body," said a foreign ministry spokesman, Andrei Nesterenko.


    In May Russia's president, Dmitry Medvedev, announced he was setting up a new body to counter the "falsification of history". The commission, dominated by members of Russia's FSB intelligence service rather than professional historians, would ensure that history teaching stressed Russia's heroic sacrifice during the war, Medvedev said, and combat foreign "revisionists". This month Russia's defence ministry posted a lengthy article on its website claiming that Poland provoked the second world war. The article said Poland refused to yield to Germany's "modest" ultimatum demands in 1939 for a land corridor to East Prussia and Gdansk. The ministry withdrew it after Poland protested to Russia's ambassador in Warsaw.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


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